Is Vettel overrated? What do you think

[xpensive]

trying discuss anything with you...as you point out, devolves into nothing but a debate...no discussion only debate..often heated debate.
But then,, how often do ya see anyone on any of these boards stop and say..."Whoa...I think you may be right...Gee I completely change my mind"?

Well, I just got you to adjust your statement on the historic price of the USGP. I do change my opinion as well when I get presented with compelling points. People who post more often on this site know that. I tend not to give up positions in disputes with people who threaten me or constantly insult me. I probably do not need to mention a certain Australian CanAm fan we have both known for several years.

On topic I say we should rest the debate and re visit this thread later in the season.

The thing is that you indeed change your position now and again WB, but you always pretend that you held the new position all along.
The Power vs Torque discussion being a good xample of that, the sign of a true besserwisser.

[mr moda]

Webber is better in 2010 than he was in 2009, so much is clear. But he is still very prone to silly mistakes when the going gets tough and much more so than Vettel who usually is very cool. He just has all the bad luck lately with reliability. Just have a look again at your copy of the Australian race where Webber spun at the pit exit and later ran into Hamilton. Vettel made no such mistakes but suffered from another left front brake failure.

WB. As you know. On another forum we were on, I posted the stats on Webber. Please do not, play the bad luck card for Seb. Good driver I admit. Cant set up a car, but still good driver.

[Mysticf1]

The turkish GP definitely does not indicate Vettel is able to keep cool.

[Chaparral]

Webber is better in 2010 than he was in 2009, so much is clear. But he is still very prone to silly mistakes when the going gets tough and much more so than Vettel who usually is very cool. He just has all the bad luck lately with reliability. Just have a look again at your copy of the Australian race where Webber spun at the pit exit and later ran into Hamilton. Vettel made no such mistakes but suffered from another left front brake failure.

WB. As you know. On another forum we were on, I posted the stats on Webber. Please do not, play the bad luck card for Seb. Good driver I admit. Cant set up a car, but still good driver.

Mr M I think from memory his stats at the end of 2008 showed DNF's through his F1 career because of mechanical failures @ 53% which is tough for any driver - he's now got a car that works and he's as quick out there as anyone including Vettel and his 4 GP wins have been comprehensive - what else does anyone want from the guy - by the way he's signed another 1 year extension with RBR which is good stuff

[WhiteBlue]

WB. .. Please do not, play the bad luck card for Seb. Good driver I admit. Cant set up a car, but still good driver.

Very strange opinion about reliability in my view. Vettel had five performance or result relevant reliability issues out of seven races this year. The cracked pivot point on tub 03 probably affected two races which would give him the shitcard six times to Webber's zero this season.

Also strange opinion on Vettel's setup ability. Vettel is a very technically minded driver with a reputation of a high work ethic with his engineers. I have problems to believe that he has setup problems when his car is not damaged. Every driver would have problems to setup a car that had chassis damage to the front wishbone pivot point.

[ringo]

Is there a relation with his chassis damage and his driving habits?
I did not mention style, because his style is pretty harmless to the car, but his curb riding is a bad habit.

I don't know how well he can set up a car. He always seems to have setup complaints in practice, or he has a mechanical issue, misses out on practice and then have to use Webber's data. Both drivers alternate this scenario, so it's hard to say how good Vettel is at setting up.
Having Gone through the Redbull program he should be very good at it i suspect.

[WhiteBlue]

I wish that people would post example pictures of what they consider bad curb riding. Instead of making a factual point with hard data all we get is opinion.

A car has to be build in such a way that spark plugs and brake disks do not break. Neither should wheels come loose nor shock absorber linkages regardless of how rough you drive the curbs. And not finding hidden cracks in a monocoque is also a bad habit to get into if you want to be WCC.

[strad]

W/B
Everything is a strange opinion if they don't agree with you. You're backin a loser in this.,,and I fail to see where you posit anything but your opinion.

[WhiteBlue]

W/B
Everything is a strange opinion if they don't agree with you. You're backin a loser in this.,,and I fail to see where you posit anything but your opinion.

Strad, for every "strange" opinion posted by Mr. Moda I have posted facts that support my view. Btw, I do respect contrary opinion when we have exhausted a discussion on an issue. I do note your view that Vettel is a looser and I propose that we let the season decide if that is a valid point of view.

[Chaparral]

I do respect contrary opinion when we have exhausted a discussion on an issue

No its your contrived opinion or nothing - and yes you are exhausting to the forum - hows that sit?

[ringo]

I wish that people would post example pictures of what they consider bad curb riding. Instead of making a factual point with hard data all we get is opinion.

A car has to be build in such a way that spark plugs and brake disks do not break. Neither should wheels come loose nor shock absorber linkages regardless of how rough you drive the curbs. And not finding hidden cracks in a monocoque is also a bad habit to get into if you want to be WCC.

I was looking for pictures of Bahrain GP last year, and also European GP of 2009.
Those are a few examples. I think there are a few more, but it's difult to find these things.

I dont know what the hell this is saying, but it's in german.

he busted up a gearbox here.

Dont get me wrong, I am not saying he is a Sato. But there has to be a logical explanation as to why he has more mechancical failures than Webber. They are not style related since they don't affect tyres or engine.

[WhiteBlue]

I was looking for pictures of Bahrain GP last year, and also European GP of 2009.
Those are a few examples. I think there are a few more, but it's difult to find these things.

I dont know what the hell this is saying, but it's in german.
he busted up a gearbox here.

Dont get me wrong, I am not saying he is a Sato. But there has to be a logical explanation as to why he has more mechancical failures than Webber. They are not style related since they don't affect tyres or engine.

He is talking about the nature of the track and how the KERS cars are advantaged there. Vettel did qualify well there and had been 5th fastest after fuel load adjustment.

On lap 15, Hamilton and Vettel came into the pits. Hamilton rejoined in sixth place but Vettel's fuel pump failed to work so had to come in again. .... On lap 24, a lot of smoke was pouring from the rear end of Vettel's car and he retired with a suspected engine failure.

I believe you are in error with your "gear box" cause of the DNF. Wiki say it was fuel pump failure and later engine bust. That is exactly what I have in memory. It was another Red Bull reliability problem that cost Sebastian points.

So what is the remaining evidence for Vettel's supposed car braking habit?

[raymondu999]

I don't know if there's a video somewhere out there on this, but in Spain, Vettel bashes his car over the red concrete mounds on that last chicane. I guess the proper analogy would be someone who carefully pockets their iPod, versus somebody who just throws it on their bed/into their bag... very crude analogy, but one nonetheless

[ringo]

Oh.. All i remember was the oil leak.
Strange failure for lack of fuel, could be something else too.

Now that i watched the highlights, it was a fuel problem and not gearbox, but why always Vettel?
I don't think his mechanics are worse than Marc's.

[WhiteBlue]

Now that i watched the highlights, it was a fuel problem and not gearbox, but why always Vettel?
I don't think his mechanics are worse than Marc's.

So we are back to square one. Vettel has more reliability faults so he must be a car breaker. I do not accept that as fact but keep calling it opinion.