European GP 2010 - Valencia

[Boost]

I honestly believe he had no nefarious thoughts about 'blocking' Alonso. The guy was in a complicated situation (so complicated it took the stewards ~30 laps to make a decision on) and was both indecisive and unsure of the rules. Simple as that. If there is one entity that should take the blame it's the FIA for having such convoluted rules that neither the drivers, the teams or the stewards can easily interpret them.

This is a fair set of statements. In all likelyhood there was no conspiracy, and no intentional wrong doing on the part of the stewards or race control.
Unfortunatly reality and perception are two seperate and very important things. The perception left in the eyes of many viewers was that the race results appeared "manipulated". The perception of this event calls into question the competancy and motivation of the officiating crew. It challenges the notions of fairness and sportsmanship, and leaves the door open for conspiracy theorists.

As for Hamilton, I think he knew exactly what he was doing. I don't blame him though because he gamed the system, and the system allowed it.

IMO yesterday did a lot of damage to the sport's reputation.

Do you really think that Lewis thought, 'mmm if I just pause here and then boot it I will get past the safety car and leave Fred stuck behind it, and if I get it slightly wrong it won't matter because a midfield car will gamble on not coming in, hold the rest of the field up and allow me to serve a penalty if I get one without issue?'

Lewis saw the car, instinctively paused slightly and then realised it will still in the pit lane, behind the safety car line and booted it. As it happened he was less than 2m too slow.

How much could Fred actually see from his seating position a couple of inches off the ground. Could he clearly see the lines, or did he just get on the radio to complain anyway and then lucked in to Lewis having made a mistake?

[jason.parker.86]

Mark Webber wrote:
"The telemetry showed that he braked 80 meters earlier for that corner than I had on the previous lap, so it was completely unexpected."

I don't think I buy this 80m malarkey.

Here he is just after Heikki braked, and there is the 100m board to the right.



I very much doubt the Red Bull brakes at 30m for that corner, so not sure what the story is supposed to be.

I said that earlier in this post, and 100% agree. Webber said in the interview with Eddie and David that "Heikki braked 100m earlier than me", which ment that lets say they hit at 120M before the corner, Mark would have been intending on braking 20M before the corner. Based on my understanding, thats a load of cobbles.

Mark Webber should have knew that Lotus was very slow, and would brake early. If Heikki brakes at 120M, then he brakes at 120M, as a racing driver you should have already thought about that before getting so close to him!

[dougskullery]

Alonso's complaints about Hamilton are a little more difficult to accept when Button's race is taken into account. Alonso projects his frustration on Hamilton, and yes, Hamilton went from being a metre infront of Fernando to 6 places higher. But the fact is, Hamilton was in front of Alonso before the safety car and in front of him afterwards; Button, on the other hand, was behind Alonso when the safety car came out, and significantly infront of him at the flag.

The fact is, Hamilton's questionable movement alongside the safety car was a far smaller factor in the race's result than the essentially random changes of position which happened - perfectly legitimately - behind the safety car, and placed Kobayashi, Button and several others infront of the Ferraris: it was those cars, and not Hamilton's (as Fernando stated), which ruined his race. Alonso's choice to single out Hamilton says more about his own psychology, and his perception of his main championship rivals, than it does about the race itself: in Alonso's mind, the drivers who legitimately leapfrogged him under the safety car don't matter because, unlike Lewis, he doesn't consider them part of the championship battle.

[timbo]

I said that earlier in this post, and 100% agree. Webber said in the interview with Eddie and David that "Heikki braked 100m earlier than me", which ment that lets say they hit at 120M before the corner, Mark would have been intending on braking 20M before the corner. Based on my understanding, thats a load of cobbles.

Mark Webber should have knew that Lotus was very slow, and would brake early. If Heikki brakes at 120M, then he brakes at 120M, as a racing driver you should have already thought about that before getting so close to him!

If they said 50M would that change things?
In the pic they haven't reach 100 M and Webber is already airborne.
Normally they would brake at 75 M. Lotus can't be that bad to stop 30-50 M earlier.

[kalinka]

The fact is, Hamilton's questionable movement alongside the safety car was a far smaller factor in the race's result than the essentially random changes of position which happened - perfectly legitimately - behind the safety car, and placed Kobayashi, Button and several others infront of the Ferraris: it was those cars, and not Hamilton's (as Fernando stated), which ruined his race. Alonso's choice to single out Hamilton says more about his own psychology, and his perception of his main championship rivals, than it does about the race itself: in Alonso's mind, the drivers who legitimately leapfrogged him under the safety car don't matter because, unlike Lewis, he doesn't consider them part of the championship battle.

I wasn't thinking of this situation before, that you explain very good. Yes, I totally agree with you, if I remember now how the race happened for Alonso, it's a very bad argument that Hamilton ruined his race. He simply forget the other cars that didn't do the same as Hamilton, but anyway they're finished the race higher than Alonso. THIS Alonso reminds me of the times when Schumacher was in the bad Ferrari in the beginning, or even worse than that. Schumacher only get frustrated during the race, and made silly moves on others, and when he was really challenged for the lead, he brakes down ( long list of these > vs. Hill,Villeneuve,Montoya,Alonso )...
Just remember how Hamilton was behaving last year when McLaren was nowhere. He dealed with the situation much wisely, and accepted that his season has gone. It's exactly this situation where true behaviour of a race driver is showing. When the car is not performing, you have no luck, and you have to admit your mistakes. This is what's frustrating Alonso so much, that he can't think at normal, cooled down way. Alonso is better than Schumacher in a way that he can whitstand the pressure if he's leading, but he cannot accept his/teams errors if the car is not performing well. If he feels that the car is good for the win (like in Canada ) than he feels OK, and doesn't complain even if he's overtaken by others, but just see the last race...

[ElTron]

1) Charlie W. is viewing the positions in the race of all drivers via GPS

2) Charlie keeps the pit-line closed the when the first 4 cars passed(statement by commenting that Massa could not enter the pi-lane because it was closed).

3) Charlie opens the pit-lane immediately so that all other drivers to enter the box.

4) Charlie orders the safety car out just in time for Vettel and Hamilton pass fair enough.

5) Hamilton slows to avoid passing Alonso at the safety car.

6) Hamilton miscalculates times and is forced to overtake the safety car not to get stuck.

7) Charlie sees everything but GPS does not report because that was his interest.

8 ) Charlie heard the radio conversations of Alonso with his team (they have access to all radios) but does nothing to Hamilton

9) The cameras didn't show all that has happened.

10) At the insistence of Ferrari by research, Charli expected just in time to punish Hamilton without the penalty had consequences in positions loss for Hamilton.

11) Ferrari knows all the drivers time on their way back to the safety car, again denouncing what happened to Charlie.

12) Charlie postpone the investigation to finish the race.

13) In an atonish form FIA decides penalized 5 seconds with just a breach of eight deserving drivers drive through penalty.

14) What was the Hamilton and Vettel speed in front of the safety car before they enterd in the pit lane???

It is a shame.

[aral]

1) Charlie W. is viewing the positions in the race of all drivers via GPS

2) Charlie keeps the pit-line closed the when the first 4 cars passed(statement by commenting that Massa could not enter the pi-lane because it was closed).

3) Charlie opens the pit-lane immediately so that all other drivers to enter the box.

4) Charlie orders the safety car out just in time for Vettel and Hamilton pass fair enough.

5) Hamilton slows to avoid passing Alonso at the safety car.

6) Hamilton miscalculates times and is forced to overtake the safety car not to get stuck.

7) Charlie sees everything but GPS does not report because that was his interest.

8 ) Charlie heard the radio conversations of Alonso with his team (they have access to all radios) but does nothing to Hamilton

9) The cameras didn't show all that has happened.

10) At the insistence of Ferrari by research, Charli expected just in time to punish Hamilton without the penalty had consequences in positions loss for Hamilton.

11) Ferrari knows all the drivers time on their way back to the safety car, again denouncing what happened to Charlie.

12) Charlie postpone the investigation to finish the race.

13) In an atonish form FIA decides penalized 5 seconds with just a breach of eight deserving drivers drive through penalty.

14) What was the Hamilton and Vettel speed in front of the safety car before they enterd in the pit lane???

It is a shame.

Very good and accurate assessment.

[myurr]

1) Charlie W. is viewing the positions in the race of all drivers via GPS

2) Charlie keeps the pit-line closed the when the first 4 cars passed(statement by commenting that Massa could not enter the pi-lane because it was closed).

3) Charlie opens the pit-lane immediately so that all other drivers to enter the box.

4) Charlie orders the safety car out just in time for Vettel and Hamilton pass fair enough.

5) Hamilton slows to avoid passing Alonso at the safety car.

6) Hamilton miscalculates times and is forced to overtake the safety car not to get stuck.

7) Charlie sees everything but GPS does not report because that was his interest.

8 ) Charlie heard the radio conversations of Alonso with his team (they have access to all radios) but does nothing to Hamilton

9) The cameras didn't show all that has happened.

10) At the insistence of Ferrari by research, Charli expected just in time to punish Hamilton without the penalty had consequences in positions loss for Hamilton.

11) Ferrari knows all the drivers time on their way back to the safety car, again denouncing what happened to Charlie.

12) Charlie postpone the investigation to finish the race.

13) In an atonish form FIA decides penalized 5 seconds with just a breach of eight deserving drivers drive through penalty.

14) What was the Hamilton and Vettel speed in front of the safety car before they enterd in the pit lane???

It is a shame.

Very good and accurate assessment.

Well... all except:

1 - 4) Assumes that this was malicious and deliberate and not just Charlie following standard procedures.

5) The overhead video shows Alonso was no where near close enough to make it past the safety car regardless or Hamilton's actions. Despite the 'fans' repeatedly bringing this up as something Hamilton did deliberately, not even Alonso or Ferrari have accused him of this.

6) Or made an honest mistake.

7 - Farcical and pure fanboy conjecture.

9) Again what is this based on?

10, 12-13) Charlie doesn't investigate anything, he oversees the running of the race whilst the stewards are responsible the policing of the rules and act independently. The most Charlie can do is request the stewards investigate something, but this isn't a precursor that must happen - the stewards are free to investigate anything they like. The penalty and the time it took to administer is entirely in line with the rules and previous incidents and precedents.

11) New allegations? I've not heard anyone other than you suggest that this was only investigated because of Ferrari complaints.

14) Where did that come from? You seem determined to keep inventing new breaches of the rules. I presume your end game is to be able to claim that Alonso deserved the win!?

Your entire analysis is, in my humble opinion, sour grapes because your team and favourite driver are under performing. Yes they were desperately unlucky with the safety car, yes the rules should be changed so that cars are not randomly penalised like this in the future, but the conspiracy theories and delusions about Hamilton are absolutely laughable.

[ElTron]

1) Charlie W. is viewing the positions in the race of all drivers via GPS

2) Charlie keeps the pit-line closed the when the first 4 cars passed(statement by commenting that Massa could not enter the pi-lane because it was closed).

3) Charlie opens the pit-lane immediately so that all other drivers to enter the box.

4) Charlie orders the safety car out just in time for Vettel and Hamilton pass fair enough.

5) Hamilton slows to avoid passing Alonso at the safety car.

6) Hamilton miscalculates times and is forced to overtake the safety car not to get stuck.

7) Charlie sees everything but GPS does not report because that was his interest.

8 ) Charlie heard the radio conversations of Alonso with his team (they have access to all radios) but does nothing to Hamilton

9) The cameras didn't show all that has happened.

10) At the insistence of Ferrari by research, Charli expected just in time to punish Hamilton without the penalty had consequences in positions loss for Hamilton.

11) Ferrari knows all the drivers time on their way back to the safety car, again denouncing what happened to Charlie.

12) Charlie postpone the investigation to finish the race.

13) In an atonish form FIA decides penalized 5 seconds with just a breach of eight deserving drivers drive through penalty.

14) What was the Hamilton and Vettel speed in front of the safety car before they enterd in the pit lane???

It is a shame.

Very good and accurate assessment.

Well... all except:

1 - 4) Assumes that this was malicious and deliberate and not just Charlie following standard procedures.

5) The overhead video shows Alonso was no where near close enough to make it past the safety car regardless or Hamilton's actions. Despite the 'fans' repeatedly bringing this up as something Hamilton did deliberately, not even Alonso or Ferrari have accused him of this.

6) Or made an honest mistake.

7 - Farcical and pure fanboy conjecture.

9) Again what is this based on?

10, 12-13) Charlie doesn't investigate anything, he oversees the running of the race whilst the stewards are responsible the policing of the rules and act independently. The most Charlie can do is request the stewards investigate something, but this isn't a precursor that must happen - the stewards are free to investigate anything they like. The penalty and the time it took to administer is entirely in line with the rules and previous incidents and precedents.

11) New allegations? I've not heard anyone other than you suggest that this was only investigated because of Ferrari complaints.

14) Where did that come from? You seem determined to keep inventing new breaches of the rules. I presume your end game is to be able to claim that Alonso deserved the win!?

Your entire analysis is, in my humble opinion, sour grapes because your team and favourite driver are under performing. Yes they were desperately unlucky with the safety car, yes the rules should be changed so that cars are not randomly penalised like this in the future, but the conspiracy theories and delusions about Hamilton are absolutely laughable.

6) OK. I killed my boss with a shotgun in his head but I'm not guilty because this is an honest mistake. My god.

It is not necessary to reponde all your claims but for example:
14) What would have been passed if Webber's car was in the middle of the track. Possibly that Hamilton or Vettel had carshed with it. It is evident that their team told them by radio that there was not danger on the track, but if there was not danger on track what is the safety car for?

[myurr]

6) OK. I killed my boss with a shotgun in his head but I'm not guilty because this is an honest mistake. My god.

Are you really likening misjudging the position of a car relative to a white line by 2 metres whilst sat on your arse on the floor with killing your boss with a shotgun!? And even if you do want to play that game, mistakenly killing someone even with a shotgun is treated differently in the law to if you do it deliberately with further distinction if it is premeditated. So awful analogy that was actually wrong and kinda proved my point

It is not necessary to reponde all your claims but for example:

And there was me thinking it was you making baseless claims, but in fact it's actually me making claims.

14) What would have been passed if Webber's car was in the middle of the track. Possibly that Hamilton or Vettel had carshed with it. It is evident that their team told them by radio that there was not danger on the track, but if there was not danger on track what is the safety car for?

You mean like Brazil 2003 where Alonso blasted into Webber's debris causing a massive crash because he didn't slow down into a waved yellow zone because he thought he could get an advantage over the cars in front of him if he did so?

Vettel and Hamilton clearly complied with the delta times, flags, and all other regulations during that period or there would have been further investigation by the stewards. You make yet more baseless accusations - what possible evidence have you got that the teams told them by radio there was no danger on the track? - and really are getting quite desperate with your accusations.

You have not one shred of evidence for any of your claims of biases or drivers breaking imaginary rules yet somehow escaping without investigation let alone punishment. I really do think it's time for you to just grow up and accept that Alonso was just unlucky and that there was no great conspiracy where every other driver on the grid cheated with the FIA's blessing!

[Giblet]

To actually think that Charlie gave an airborne poop about positions when one of the drivers he is there to protect who just got in a possible life threatening accident, and debris on the track when other cars are coming up, is absolute rubbish.

Anything you say otherwise shows lack of information about his character and the reason he is there.

Understand just one thing, or be forever lost in fanboy nonsense. When Charlie calls a safety car, he does not care about position, nor should he. Safety trumps everything else, immediately.

Charlie was there when Senna died. He understands that people's lives are more important than race positions, and thinking that he had the forethought to put malice onto something that happened arbitrarily is asinine.

Charlie Whiting is one of the good things about F1, always has been.

[ElTron]

Alonso was unlucky and Hamilton was honest, you can believe this but it is not the first time FIA helps Hamilton and modify the rules once Hamilton has pissed on them.

[WhiteBlue]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEo5eqjjfXc[/youtube]

video with several perspectives showing the safety car incident from Alonso's onboard

Watching the vid you can imagine that this was a clever try by Hamilton at keeping Alonso behind the safety car and pass it himself. The second part would have obviously gone wrong. Unfortunately you cannot prove anything and Hamilton was carefully navigating around the issue in the press conference.

Q: Can you comment a little bit on this penalty with the safety car? Did you see the car coming out of the pits? Did you hesitate to overtake it?
LH: No, when I came down the straight, I was accelerating, I didn’t see the safety car coming out and then as I came round turn one, we know that obviously the safety car was out but I was able to push until the safety car two line, I think, and at that point I saw the safety car alongside me and I thought I was passed, so when I noticed it, he was already behind and so I continued.

The bolded part is not consistent with the video evidence. I initially thought Hamilton slowed down and accelerated again due to confusion but his statement in the press conference sounds like a cover up. I wonder if some team radio would shed more light on this episode. As it stands one can only give Hamilton the benefit of doubt. On the oher side we can take it as fact that both Hamilton and Alonso would have legally passed if Hamilton had not slowed down. That is a bitter pill for Alonso and Hamilton's misconstruction in the press conference makes it quite iffy.

All this crap only happens because you can get a "free" pit stop. I hope they stop all this nonsense and abolish SC pit stops all together.

[ringo]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEo5eqjjfXc[/youtube]

video with several perspectives showing the safety car incident from Alonso's onboard

Watching the vid you can imagine that this was a clever try by Hamilton at keeping Alonso behind the safety car and pass it himself. The second part would have obviously gone wrong. Unfortunately you cannot prove anything and Hamilton was carefully navigating around the issue in the press conference.

Q: Can you comment a little bit on this penalty with the safety car? Did you see the car coming out of the pits? Did you hesitate to overtake it?
LH: No, when I came down the straight, I was accelerating, I didn’t see the safety car coming out and then as I came round turn one, we know that obviously the safety car was out but I was able to push until the safety car two line, I think, and at that point I saw the safety car alongside me and I thought I was passed, so when I noticed it, he was already behind and so I continued.

The bolded part is not consistent with the video evidence. I initially thought Hamilton slowed down and accelerated again due to confusion but his statement in the press conference sounds like a cover up. I wonder if some team radio would shed more light on this episode. As it stands one can only give Hamilton the benefit of doubt. On the oher side we can take it as fact that both Hamilton and Alonso would have legally passed if Hamilton had not slowed down. That is a bitter pill for Alonso and Hamilton's misconstruction in the press conference makes it quite iffy.

All this crap only happens because you can get a "free" pit stop. I hope they stop all this nonsense and abolish SC pit stops all together.

I dont think it's a cover up. He is just nervous that whatever he says will be used against him. Once bitten twice shy.

Webber can say something as outrageous as Heiki braked 80m too early, but he is not going to get scrutinized for covering up.
Hamilton on the other hand is not so fortunate. I would probably say something like that if i was in his place; it's right after the race and he is uneasy about what other penalties might come his way.
The journalists are purposely putting him in a tight spot, and they know Australia comes to his mind whenever inquiries come his way.
Next time he should say nothing and tell them go ask Alonso or watch the video evidence,that should be enough.

[WhiteBlue]

Michael Schmidt at AMuS has contributed more information about the 5s penalties for the nine drivers:

Warum wurden so viele Piloten bestraft? War die Strafe gerecht?

Wenn das Safety-Car auf die Strecke geht, setzt die Rennleitung eine komplizierte Technik-Choreographie in Gang. Auf den Lenkrad-Displays der Piloten erscheint ohne Vorwarnung eine Countdown-Zeit, die sie auf dem Weg zur ersten Safety-Car-Linie kurz vor der Boxeneinfahrt nicht unterbieten dürfen. Diese Zeit ist zirka 20 Prozent langsamer als das normale Renntempo. Doch gleich neun Formel 1-Piloten hielten sich nicht an die Vorgabe.

Das Problem lag darin, dass das Feld in dieser frühen Phase noch nahe zusammen lag. In engen Kämpfen verwickelt hatten viele Piloten die Zeitvorgabe einfach zu spät bemerkt. "Ich kam gerade aus der letzten Haarnadel. Danach kommen nur schnelle Ecken nach links und rechts. Da bleibt keine Zeit, auf das Display zu schauen", entschuldigt sich Adrian Sutil. Die beste Ausrede hatten Jenson Button und Robert Kubica. "Sie waren nur 100 Meter vor der Safety-Car-Linie und konnten die Zeit gar nicht einhalten, ohne eine Vollbremsung hinzulegen", gestand auch die Rennleitung später.

Am Ende wurden alle Piloten mit einem Zeitmalus von fünf Sekunden belegt. "Die meisten Fahrer haben zwischen zwei und drei Sekunden gewonnen", erklärt Sauber-Teammanager Beat Zehnder. "Ich denke, die Strafe geht in Ordnung."


Why were so many drivers penalized and was the penalty fair?

When the safety car enters the track race control starts a complicated technical clockwork. Without prior warning a timer starts to run down on the dash display of the drivers giving a time that they must not beat to the first safety car line. The line is located shortly before the pit entry. This time is approximately 20% longer than the time under normal race pace. In Valencia nine drivers did not obey that time.

The field was very close in this early part of the race. Many drivers were involved in close fights and realized the target time much too late. "I exited the last hairpin and into the final fast left and right hand corners. There is no time to look at the display." Adrian Sutil excused the transgression. The best excuse came from Jenson Button and Robert Kubica. "They were just 100 meters from the safety car line and were unable to make the target time unless they stepped on the brake with full power." acknowledged race control later.

In the end all drivers were handed a 5s penalty. "Most drivers gained between two and three seconds" explained Sauber team manager Beat Zehnder. "I think the penalty is appropriate."

This ludicrous business with the delta times highlights precisely why the safety car rule is useless. If a driver gets a target time at the begin of a lap he can mentally translate that into a speed that he has to try to hit. But if you hit him with a target time out of the blue somewhere on track in the middle of an attack or a defense he will have little chance to work out how he must pace himself and also make the adjustment that this time does not relate to crossing the finish line but the safety car line #1. If he is on the final approach to the safety car line he cannot be expected to observe the rule at all.

The mass violation of the delta time rule is ample proof - if it was ever needed - that the egg heads in the TWG are too much in love with the gimmicks at their disposal. The delta time rule ought to be abolished immediately before it creates more controversy. If the drivers had a speedometer in the car you can give them a target speed and expect them to observe it after a certain warning time. They do not have this luxury and frankly speaking it is completely unnecessary if sensible safety car rules were made.