Which one should I read first?

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Post Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:17 pm

Hello guys. I hope you can recommend me which of the following books should I read first.

Race Car Vehicle Dyanmics, Milliken
Fundamentals of Vehicle Dynamics, Gillespie


I have already read Tune To Win, Smith. I'm not studying mechanical, but electronic engineering. I have finished all my physics and maths(in case any of the book have difficult ones).

My interest is, first of all, understanding (deeply) car dynamics. And suspension/chassis design.
Come back 747, we miss you!!
Caito
 
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Location: Argentina

Post Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:23 pm

I havent read Gillespie, so cant compare both.

However, I have found Milliken to be more as a "reference" text rather than a book to read from A to Z.

ps: do you have the Gillespie book?
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna
Belatti
 
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Argentina

Post Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:06 pm

Hi Caito,
Gillespie, is good, and still considered a reference book by many, but is not specific related to race cars.
It´s more a reference, in the same way Bellati describs the Milliken book - and I would agree with that.

Gillespie is maybe not the best "first read" in this field, it´s more a collection/reference of the most used forrmulas/techniques/calculations/concepts to analysis/describ car handling/dynamics.
But it´s a classic, sooner or later you will have/want to read it. IMHO

Milliken is more race car specific, and covers aerodynamic forces in more detail.

A good introduction to the overall concept/problematic is (IMO):

Car,Suspension & Handling by Bastow & Howard
Image

or

Tires,Suspension & Handling by John C.Dixion
Image

this books are more in the Caroll Smith style, the other two and especially Gillespie is more of an academic text book.

also good (but more road car specific)
The Automotive Chassis by Reimpell & Stoll
Image

Good luck & happy reading
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci
747heavy
 
Joined: 6 Jul 2010

Post Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:42 am

Thank you both.

I'll try to get the more "Carroll Smith style" and if I can't get them I'll probably read the same chapter of Gillespie and RCVD and then choose which one I like the most.

Belatti I have a copy, not the book.



Bye bye!!!

PS 747h do you fly? My dad( now retired ) was a 747 Commander.
Come back 747, we miss you!!
Caito
 
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Location: Argentina

Post Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:32 pm

Let me add a question. I can get a copy of "The Automotive Chassis", if not I'd have to import any of the others.

Due to reviews, I'd like to buy Tires, Suspension and Handling.

Is it worth reading both? Or should it be one or the other?

I have finished all my maths, but, are they full of equations, do they have good explanatory texts?

Do they both cover Forces involved in the suspension, and where do they come from?



Thank you very much!

Bye bye.


PS 747h, nice blog, is it yours?
Come back 747, we miss you!!
Caito
 
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Location: Argentina

Post Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:47 pm

Hi Caito,

No, I don´t fly, but some friends of mine are professional pilots (civil & military), and one of them is a flight captain with Quantas. Also I do not have a blog, so that is someone elses good work.
But now let´s get back to your question.

"The automotive Chassis" by Reimpell is very similar to Gillespie.
As it says on the cover -engineering principles- and yes there is lot´s of maths in the book, but as you study for an engineering degree, it should not be a problem for you to follow.
But it is more of an academic text book. Reimpell was (maybe still is) a professor at the FH (University) in Colonge/Germany. That gives you an idea, where he is comming from.
He wrote a couple of other good books on the topic, but I think they are only published in German.
The automotive chassis, is newer then Gillespie, therefore it includes more of the later technologies and there effects (ABS,ESP).

Tires, Suspension and Handling is still the better introduction to the overal topic (IMO), and then follow up with Reimpell or Gillespie.
For me these books are both more of an reference, if you need to brush up on your maths, or if you look to analyse a specific problem, or write some sim/calculation software.

The forces and pinciples which are holding a car on the road are the same for road and race cars, so there is no difference as far as the maths are concerned.
The Automotive chassis is more road car specific, as it will deal with elasto kinematic effects a bit more.
In some (most) race car specific books these effects are ignored.
They assume that your wishbone, upright or subframe is just stiff enough. This makes some of the maths involved easier, but is a bit of a simplification.
For the most part, it is o.k. - you have to start somewhere, and then dig deeper and deeper, like with most other things. As more you learn/know as more you realize what you don´t know.
The automotive Chassis, does not deal with downforce and it´s effects much (apart from the drag), as it is not that relevant to road vehicles. (not on the magnitude as it is for F1 for example)

Milliken has a slightly different approach when it comes to describe vehicle stability. His MMM (Milliken Moment Method) is more based on aircraft stability terms, which is not surprising, seeing where his background is.
If you read Milliken, and show some of the examples to your dad, I´m sure he will understand the concepts behind.
Milliken uses some aircraft specific terms such as "trim" etc., in his examples.

They all (books) make for good reading, and have their relevance IMHO.
Tire,Suspension & Handling is the easiest to read IMHO
Reimppel and Gillespie are very similar, and Milliken is the most race car relevant/specific, in dealing with aerodynamic effects to an larger extent.

Hope that helps a bit.
I think the money on Tires,Suspension&Handling is well spend.

Ciao

P.S.: Pls say hello to your dad.
Last edited by 747heavy on Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci
747heavy
 
Joined: 6 Jul 2010

Post Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:29 pm

Hi Caito,

Maybe have a look here:

I have not read this one, so can´t speak about it.
But maybe you find something interesting for you in the free preview.

http://books.google.de/books?id=Pvsv78x ... ng&f=false

this two are very advanced and more interesting if you are into writing/using simulation software.

http://books.google.de/books?id=3GnIfH6 ... ng&f=false

I have this one, but it´s no easy read, it´s definately not a beginners book.
But it´s good if you want/need to write some software or do some advanced calculations.

http://books.google.de/books?id=yAo-6yQ ... ng&f=false

Hope it helps you a bit

Good luck & all the best
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci
747heavy
 
Joined: 6 Jul 2010

Post Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:25 am

Thank you very very much 747h. My dad will receive your hello as soon as he's back to town.


I will start with Tires Suspension and Handling. I have the others on the waiting list. The last ones are rather interesting because they fall in my application radius since I'm actually studying electronic engineering.


So, I have to buy Tires Suspension and Handling and have it shipped to Argentina.

Besides Amazon do you know any other bookstore that will ship to my country?


Thank you very much, indeed.

Bye bye

Caito.
Come back 747, we miss you!!
Caito
 
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Location: Argentina

Post Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:55 am

Caito wrote:...

So, I have to buy Tires Suspension and Handling and have it shipped to Argentina.

Besides Amazon do you know any other bookstore that will ship to my country?


Thank you very much, indeed.

...

You might want to contact Belatti about that. It seems that he's older than you and might have some experience with this.

Buena suerte.
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mx_tifoso
 
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Location: North America

Post Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:45 pm

Caito wrote:Besides Amazon do you know any other bookstore that will ship to my country?



Hi Caito,

No sorry can´t help you with this one, but I would think, most larger retailers would send to Argentina.
I would still use Amazon, as I only had good expiriences with them.
I lived and worked in Brazil in 2008 and had some books send to Brazil, without any problems.
I don´t know what the situation in Argentina is in respect to customs & duties (import taxes etc.). But I ordered the books via the Amazon website, paid with my credit card, and the books arrived within 10 days - never had any problems.

It´s a bit more expensive, but I would choose the 5-10 business days option with Amazon, if you choose regular post, it may take forever (very long), and with the other option, you can track the books online, and do something, if you see a problem, like that the books are for 4 days in BA airport etc.

I don´t know what you want to do, but if you are into controller design for automotive applications such as ABS or ESP, then the later mentioned books are interesting.
As car behavior and handling depends on the tires at the end of the day, this book is also interesting, but only if you are really deep into it, it´s not a causual read.
You should read Milliken,Gillespie or Reimpell first

Image



maybe you find also some interesting books/papers here as well:
http://papers.sae.org/vehicles-performance/


All the best & buena suerte
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci
747heavy
 
Joined: 6 Jul 2010

Post Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:48 am

Thank you very much 747h, you have been really supportive. I bookmarked all the books mentioned, so I don't forget to read them.

I'll probably go with Amazon, my mother just told me to wait until september, when august credit card closes. Customs are supposed to be 0% (because it's a book), but you never know. Bear in mind 70usd is lots of money for a book in my country.


Time to read!


bye bye!

Thank you!

Caito.-
Come back 747, we miss you!!
Caito
 
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Location: Argentina

Post Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:20 pm

Dixon's book is on the way!

Thank you all for your support.


Caito.-
Come back 747, we miss you!!
Caito
 
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Location: Argentina

Post Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:20 pm

excellent-I hope you like it/find it useful.
Maybe you post your opinion here, when you have read it.

Good luck & happy reading
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci
747heavy
 
Joined: 6 Jul 2010

Post Sat Sep 11, 2010 1:18 am

maybe you like this pdf.
It´s not so good in explaining things, but if you need/want to do same calculations it provides some good maths.
Sorry, not the most easy/entertaining read :(

Enjoy:

http://homepages.fh-regensburg.de/~rig3 ... namics.pdf
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci
747heavy
 
Joined: 6 Jul 2010

Post Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:08 pm

Thank you very much 747, I have already saved the pdf for (hopefully) the near future.

Good news is.. I have just received the package! :D
Come back 747, we miss you!!
Caito
 
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Location: Argentina

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