What race class to choose?

[marcush.]

I like that ...allmost PANOZ style layout ...very cool ..that would also suit
the desire to have it modular in layout without creating expensive DTM stile
structures...wich is in my view prohibitive.

[Pachoba]

You do in new Brazil stock cars? The true price - 220 000USD?
I would be grateful for your expert advices.


If GT I think something like this:

Code: Select all

http://www.ginettacars.com/motorsport_range_details2.php?id=10&newsID=13

Is there a price £45,200(approximately 50,000EUR).
I don´t know, that is rental or full race car buy?
If price on full race car, it is the best price on market.

If I choose single seater, will better road tunning engine or motorcycle engine? Motorcycle engine is with gearbox, but will be expensive, with ordinary engine you must buy extra gearbox.
Which is better? I think tunned car engine.

[747heavy]

I have worked in 2008/2009 in StockCAr and have seen the new new car during the first tests. THe price is about correct, this was for a race ready car without engine. The engines in StockCAr ar on a lease contract from one company.
It´s not a bad price for a a car with X-trac gearbox and AP brakes. Biut it is the sales price, so the company who buids them makes some profit too.
I just have shown the photos, so that you can see the chassis structure with the straight tubes. It´s quick and easy to produce. They pre-produced large sections on welding jigs, and then assembled the final chassis quickly. It´s a nice and effective system. As I said, all the tubes are straight and the connections are all laser cut, so no fiddling around with cutting the tubes to fit. It´s a very efficient production process.

What is expensive on this car is the gearbox. But it lasts the whole year, and has made zero problems so far.
Temperature inside the car, is a problem, and they have changed the exhaust layout after two races in 2009.

I would think that a rear /mid engine is better for a rear wheel drive (RWD) car.
Think about to use a complete front wheel drive engine/gearbox combo and run it in the rear. Then you can fit a limited slip diff and some internals to make the gearbox last. - Like an Toyota MR2 or Rover MG-F layout. I think you get anPedalshift for the MR2. maybe you can modify this sytem.

If you make a car based on a motorcylce engine gearbox, you will need to make it as light as possible - IMHO, and you need to think about the differential.
The light sportscars with motorcycle engines use a chain drive to the rear axle in some cases. A Pedalshift system with a motocycle gearbox is relative easy to build, as the gearbox is sequential shift allready.

THe STockCAr uses a common fibre glass centre section for the bodyshell, and then you have different front and rear modules for the two different models/makes (Peugeot/Chevrolet-Opel).
Depending from where you want to build your car, the price is a bit low, if you try to build it in Germany,France, Belgium etc, because labour (man hours) are expensive.
If you build it in China, South America or East Europe it´s possible - IMHO.

[marcush.]

the VW TSI with DSG Gearbox would fit nicely although the box is quite heavy if someone does not shy away from a transversial layout.
that Gearbox was used in the SEAT Coppa one make series so i´d think it can take some punishment.

I ´d still love the Front engine rear gearbox idea...damn me..

so what about a BMW DSG gearbox ?
must be a cheaper than all those sequential boxes from drenth ,hewland xtrac..

[Pachoba]

to 747heavy:
I wanted to use straight tubes in the begining.
You have true, gearbox is not cheap. I must solve this problem.
Mid engine is the best, but rear engine not good from downforce type. On the back racecar, you have spoiler for downforce. Engine is more weight and next unnecessary burden on rear wheels. In this wiew is front engine better(you have good front downforce with engine weight and you tune back downforce with wing).
What is IMHO?
I think build this car in middle europe. I have good references and technical equipment.

to marcush.:
You think use serial automatic gearboxes? And how to gear change? Automatic or to command? This not good idea, but i think many electronic that can go wrong. One electronic mistake and you not race.

to all:
Have brazil stock cars official website? I can´t find.

I like Super Clio. Is made Super Clio as space frame? What the engine, gearbox? What the configuration(engine front)? Some websites?

I don´t see on Super clio car a splitter holes. I see on front orange bumpers black areas - it is hole for splitter?
Use Brazil stockcars for front downforce splitter or as DTM only wings on bumper corners( engine hood)? Renault Super Clio don´t have wings on bumper corners, therefore I ask you. Can you share splitter phottos?

You say the space frame and FIA approval. What the options? Is better FIA approval... How it been on the circuit? Circuits(for example: Silverstone, Zandvoort, Brands Hatch, Brno) request safety documentation if I want to race?

I think one seater car is the more easy on construction except aerodynamics. In the purpose build race car(next only PBC) is complex for other systems... I can use only small types of cars bodies - hatchback, sedan, gt type...
I think Renault Clio is not good type of car body - hatchback. I think better is sedan type view of aerodynamics. What do you think?

[marcush.]

seat supercoppa gearboxes do hold up ok afaik...and with the paddle shift you don´t have chances to make life hard for the box.
I don´t think these are not reliable.
A full blown sequential box is alot of money and it will for sure rip your cost concept to pieces..you cannot afford to spend half the budget on gearbox.

[Pachoba]

If i select car, I will use sequentilal gearbox, if I select single seater, I will use hydraulic/pneumatic gear change system.

I can do this by:
gears, dog rings, shaft... i use manufactured and gearbox box I made. I can made hydraulic/pneumatic system too(buy material...lathe, miller....I buy only gaskets and similar stuff)
I give this consist gearbox to teams as competitive. If team go out, this gearbox must give back(detect mistakes/repair and use back).
I think this can be cheaper as any other gearbox.

I can made:
- gearbox case(aluminium)
- hydraulic gear change
- sliding bars
- paddles(alluminium)

I can buy:
- gears
- dog rings
- shafts
- Screws(@ 15€)
- rubber gaskets on piston(max. 15€)
- small hydraulic pump(to 200€)
- hydraulic hose(to 100€)
- solenoid valve(@ 40€)
- silicone(@ 4€)
- small electric circuit system(made cheaper company)(@ 40€)
- electric switches under paddles(@ 20€)
- cables(@ 40€)



marcush. what do you say? It is possible cheaper?

[747heavy]

as for the StockCar Brazil website.

http://stockcar.globo.com/

[747heavy]

Pachoba,

I don´t know what you mean with holes for front splitter??

DTM cars use a front splitter.
The small winglet´s/dive plates you see make < 10% of the down force at the front.

a DTM/GT car splitter looks like this from the underside.
You don´t need any holes for a splitter to work.





Porsche Splitter:



another splitter on a touring/road car


the Super Clio in Brazil has a middle engine, and used the Formula Renault 2.0 gear box (sequential). Engine was based on the 2.0 ltr 16V Clio engine, similar to Formel Renault.

I will see, if I can find some photos of the chassis, but I don´t have my old computer here, so not sure I have some on this one.

[marcush.]

I can barely resist to make a reference to another thread,but I will politely not do so.
If you are absolutely sure you can do this for that sort of money I´d be more than impressed.
Reality tells me that gearbox reliabilty is not easy to achieve but i cannot judge your expertise from here.



the Audi DTM is a nice piece of kit ...i love that splitter as well ..

[747heavy]

the splitter shown from the underside is a Merc CLK GTR Splitter, did not have a A4 splitter photo here at the moment.

Anyway the concept is similar, but i has less fences/strakes due to the rules.

[747heavy]

gearbox and rear suspension Brazil StockCar



test car



production

[Pachoba]

Beautiful pictures, thanks.
Big thanks for splitters pictures.

My question about splitters been, why holes in splitter as on for example picture Aston Martin DBR9? Aston have some holes in his splitter. I think the holes, under big radiator hole. Why? These holes not have Brazil Stockcars or DTM?

*Principle can be as exhaust diffuser? Air intake from holes continue under splitter and accelerates the air under splitter and that finishing in side pods?



Gentlemans
You think: I must be crazy if so I consist gearbox.

[747heavy]

I suppose that the opening in the middle is for the radiators (water coolers) and the two openings at the side or for brake cooling.
This openings have nothing to do with the splitter. Your splitter would work better, when you could run the front of the car completly closed.

The way a font splitter with diffusor works is based on Bernoulli's principle also called the Venturi effect. The same principle works in a rear/heck diffusor.

Maybe you do some reading about the topic:

http://www.modified.com/tech/0610sccp_a ... index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffuser_%28automotive%29

http://www.v6calibra.net/docs/calibra_a ... ynamic.htm

http://www.symscape.com/blog/secrets_of_diffusers

http://www.fluent.com/about/news/newsle ... 5i2/a1.pdf



http://www.mulsannescorner.com/gtone-1.html

[Pachoba]

Thanks good points.

Formula 1000 have carbon or alluminium or steel wheel suspension bars?
Your brazil stockcar have carbon wheel suspension bars?

Today I was to visit Formula SAE team, and they claim that overall costs are about 35.000EUR where to start from scratch(the cost of the entire competition - vehicle development, travel to circuit, operation of vehicle, accommodation...). Now they have cost some 15.000EUR on one year competition.

It mean, my test car can be to 35.000EUR, no? (only frame, shocks, engine, gearbox, steering, glass fiber pannels, lights, safety and seat, maybe interior ventilation).

What do you say on wheel screw? Should I do one nut system or no? It is unnecessary to make a big budget?