Formula Student questions: More questions!

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Post Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:23 pm

Hi guys. I've just gone into my final year at university to get my honours and I'm doing Formula Student (well, one part of it) as my project. My side of the project consists of Telemetry, sensors, seating, wheels, tyres and general ergonomics. I was wondering if anyone had any links for the telemetry and sensors side of things? I know MOTEC but that's as far as my knowledge goes I'm afraid.

Any other input on my subject matter would be MUCH appreciated. :)
Last edited by Scotracer on Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Powertrain Cooling Engineer
Scotracer
 
Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland, UK

Post Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:13 pm

Please, don't laugh, I'm pretty amateurish about this...

I use Bosch software, LapSim and WinDarab, for cars with Motronics injection (BMW only, in my case). LapSim is "universal" (that is, you can use it to simulate anything) but Win Darab is pegged to Motronics.

I also have a very old (bought around 2000) Brembo acquisition card with "ride height" sensors made with cheap measuring lasers, adapted locally, :oops: but I imagine it's discontinued, as I could not find the webpage again.

For Bosch software, check here: http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/content ... l/3589.htm

The documentation is here: http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/content ... Manual.pdf

And here: http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/content ... mV2007.pdf

I posted in my site a scan of the article about simulations, that appeared in RaceTech magazine, just in case, here:

Accesible simulations
Image

Warning: the data logger by Bosch costs around 2.300 euros, I bought the card from Brembo by U$300... I use it in karts, that explains it all. :)

Second warning: you can stop reading now, this is NOT what you're looking for, but it could help you tangentially.

I've also rigged "locally" a system by Vectra, a really old (founded in the XVIIIth century, I swear) french firm, using a GPS (with 3 meters precission) and a computer to get the track center coordinates, like this:

Image

If you have a GPS you can get more or less accurate coordinates if you use WAAS. Otherwise, you have to pay around 500US to get good precission for a post-processing.

WAAS explanation

The Vectra system is originally developed for road inventory (I helped to install it for a colombian road agency). It's also rigged by me to use a taxicab distance measuring device (I swear I'm not making this up). You can laugh now... :D

Anyway, I'm sure that the guys around here that have specific experience with Formula Student can help you more. I just use all this paraphernalia to play around with the karts at our local track. I've learnt a lot (that's something easy to do, as I don't know a lot).

Something I've found really useful is to deduce the track coordinates from Google Earth pictures. You'll need ArcGis (or some GIS software capable of projecting coordinate systems) and AutoCAD or similar to get them. The results are pretty impressive, as I've explained at my site:

Autocad drawing of Catalunya circuit - Story of a restitution extraordinaire (follow the link at the bottom of the page). I was able to deduce the length of straights, the radii of curves and the approximate equations of transition curves, like this:
Image

Of course, I cannot find slopes that way, , nor lateral nor longitudinal, that's something you have to measure directly (or estimate, if you wish).

I'd be glad to help with that last, unnecesary ;) part about track coordinates, if time allows me (it never does!).
Ciro
Ciro Pabón
 
Joined: 10 May 2005

Post Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:07 pm

Thanks Ciro :D

As ever you ramble on :lol: -- I really admire your enthusiasm :)

I will look at all my options because, as you know, cost is a massive factor in Formula SAE.
Powertrain Cooling Engineer
Scotracer
 
Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland, UK

Post Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:46 pm

Okay, I have some more questions:

- Does anyone have any race-car (Formula Ford or similar) tyre data? Rolling resistance and longitudinal and lateral coefficients of grip are what I'm looking for

Actually, that's all I need for now.

Thanks 8)
Powertrain Cooling Engineer
Scotracer
 
Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland, UK

Post Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:18 pm

have you looked into Tire Testing Consortium for Formula SAE/Formula Student? Basically a whole lot of school pooled money together to get a whole bunch of tires for Formula SAE cars tested at CalSpan(at a vastly discounted rate). CalSpan is one of the world's premier automotive/military/aviation testing center, and is used by many F1/NASCAR/whathaveyou teams to get tire data on their flat-trac tester. I think most school pays somewhere in the region of $500 USD to get in, and you get all of the tire data they tested on a DVD. They test each tires at different camber, pressure and vertical load. For most teams this give them more than what they know to do with, but to some they can still find need for more detailed data. Most popular tire choice in the series have been tested, and there are plans to include more types of tires as well as newer models/compound as they become available, as they still have quite a bit of budget left as more schools have joined since the inital group. Manufacturers are also encouraged to donate their tires for testing as they also get ALL the data, including their competitors'....This is pretty much the only consortium of its kind in any racing series...

For more detail please refer to the TTC thread over at fsae.com
RacingManiac
 
Joined: 22 Nov 2004

Post Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:39 pm

To get free stuff to do this talk to National instruments they love FSAE

to get sensors go to omega.com tell them you are FSAE you can usually get free stuff from them

For ergo read up on some industrial ergo books

there is a really good one done by the US military I believe but I cant remeber the name
"The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me."
flynfrog
 
Joined: 23 Mar 2006

Post Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:59 pm

TTC data is F essential.

For your sensor loom, I HIGHLY reccomend Deutsch connectors, made by Ladd industries. They rock. Call em up and they generally sponsor FSAE teams with ~$400 worth of connectors.
Grip is a four letter word.

2 is the new #1.
Jersey Tom
 
Joined: 29 May 2006
Location: Huntersville, NC

Post Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:39 am

we used IR thermo couples so you can get real time tire temps

to be honest

a few hours in a parking lot with some camber shims and air tank and a tyre pyrometer will probably accomplish just as much and give you lots of seat time
"The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me."
flynfrog
 
Joined: 23 Mar 2006

Post Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:44 am

maybe some cones and a stopwatch
"The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me."
flynfrog
 
Joined: 23 Mar 2006

Post Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:25 am

And beers.

Or straight ethanol. I know how you guys roll.
Grip is a four letter word.

2 is the new #1.
Jersey Tom
 
Joined: 29 May 2006
Location: Huntersville, NC

Post Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:36 am

Jersey Tom wrote:And beers.

Or straight ethanol. I know how you guys roll.

they dont tell you want the rest of E85 is

its mixers :lol:
"The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me."
flynfrog
 
Joined: 23 Mar 2006

Post Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:27 pm

Thanks everyone (including those who weren't entirely on topic ;))
Powertrain Cooling Engineer
Scotracer
 
Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland, UK

Post Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:42 pm

Biggest things you can do to go fast...

1) Finish early.

2) Use IR temp sensors for setting static camber and pressure. Even temperatures mid-corner is what you want.

3) Spring, bar, and DIFFERENTIAL (!!) to get good on-, neutral-, and off-throttle balance

4) Have your drivers practice their downshifts. Most FSAE drivers are terrible. I'd set up a square course for just practicing brake/downshift/trailbrake/corner/power-on.

5) Use your DAQ to work on driver training. Look for drivers that are hesitant.. that don't jump immediately from the gas to the brakes. Look for drivers that brake early and don't trailbrake. Run cone courses similar to comp.

6) Test at least 2 different tire types / manufacturers / or compounds. Initial grip and breakaway feel are very important in this series.
Grip is a four letter word.

2 is the new #1.
Jersey Tom
 
Joined: 29 May 2006
Location: Huntersville, NC

Post Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:19 am

Finish early is the most important thing you can do. If you can get in at least 2 weeks of testing time it'll make a huge difference. We have had at least 4 weeks of running time for every car since 2006 and you literally go into comp and expect nothing to break. And the more seat time you can give your drivers the better off you can be. Good driver can also mask deficiencies in these cars, since the driver levels are so different in the series.
RacingManiac
 
Joined: 22 Nov 2004

Post Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:18 pm

hye is there anybody out there with costing experience in any formula 1 team??
im doing a study on the rear wing analysis and came across the costs part, so in real life how much does it costs for a production of a formula 1 rear wing part...
avian
 
Joined: 13 Dec 2010

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