Adjustable Rear Wing (DRS)

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Post Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:40 pm

segedunum wrote:Gary Anderson came up with an idea that I thought was intriguing.

They should have the slot gap at 50mm by default and then it would be up to the driver to adjust the trim in corners and under braking. The driver then wouldn't have to push an additional button down the straight and safety-wise you'd have drivers getting used to the default level of downforce that they have, which they can then adjust.

This would promote some more serious driver skill and fuel efficiency would also be better for the drivers who are good enough to live without more downforce.


+1 Seg, I think you have a point there.
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forty-two
 
Joined: 1 Mar 2010

Post Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:46 pm

Ciro Pabón wrote:Well, actually regulations are pretty specific:

3.18.1 The incidence of the rearmost and uppermost closed section described in Article 3.10.2 may be varied whilst the car is in motion provided:

...

- The design is such that failure of the system will result in the uppermost closed section returning to the normal high incidence position.
- Any alteration of the incidence of the uppermost closed section may only be commanded by direct driver input and controlled using the control electronics specified in Article 8.2.
3.18.2 The adjustable bodywork may be activated by the driver at any time prior to the start of the race and, for the sole purpose of improving overtaking opportunities during the race, after the driver has completed a minimum of two laps after the race start or following a safety car period.
The driver may only activate the adjustable bodywork in the race when he has been notified via the control electronics (see Article 8.2) that it is enabled. It will only be enabled if the driver is less than one second behind another at any of the pre-determined positions around each circuit. The system will be disabled by the control electronics the first time the driver uses the brakes after he has activated the system.
The FIA may, after consulting all competitors, adjust the above time proximity in order to ensure the stated purpose of the adjustable bodywork is met.


As per usual with these regs, I think it is flawed and open to interpretation.

It says "The system will be disabled by the control electronics the first time the driver uses the brakes after he has activated the system." which implies that IF (and granted that's a pretty big if) a driver felt he was somehow able to continue round a corner without "using the brakes" he could presumably do so with the ARW in it's low drag position.

Therefore, if the regs DONT stipulate that the angle which the "adjusted" position must land at, or more accurately how much downforce/drag the adjusted position must lose, a smart team could make their ARW able to reduce drag and downforce only a bit, allowing their car to make it some distance around the circuit with it in it's "adjusted" position.... a bit like the f-duct afterall!
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forty-two
 
Joined: 1 Mar 2010

Post Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:10 pm

forty-two wrote:t says "The system will be disabled by the control electronics the first time the driver uses the brakes after he has activated the system." which implies that IF (and granted that's a pretty big if) a driver felt he was somehow able to continue round a corner without "using the brakes" he could presumably do so with the ARW in it's low drag position.

Therefore, if the regs DONT stipulate that the angle which the "adjusted" position must land at, or more accurately how much downforce/drag the adjusted position must lose, a smart team could make their ARW able to reduce drag and downforce only a bit, allowing their car to make it some distance around the circuit with it in it's "adjusted" position.... a bit like the f-duct afterall!


It's a good point, but wouldn't the new "activation zones" take care of this? I assume that they can't stay open outside of these zones, or is it simply that they can only be activated in these zones? Anyone got the clarification?
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horse
 
Joined: 23 Oct 2009
Location: Edinburgh, UK

Post Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:28 pm

horse wrote:It's a good point, but wouldn't the new "activation zones" take care of this? I assume that they can't stay open outside of these zones, or is it simply that they can only be activated in these zones? Anyone got the clarification?

The active rear wing can only be active in the activation zone. It deactivates by the driver pushing the brake pedal. I assume that the activation zone ends behind the point where drivers will have to brake to make the corner. But that is something we will see when they test this new featiure in Bahrain.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
WhiteBlue
 
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Post Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:26 pm

Sure, I believe you´re right, horse.

I understand you need three things to use the adjustable rear wing (ARW). If these conditions are not met, then you cannot use it (there is the word "only" in the regulations).

1. To be following a car with less than a second of gap.

2. To be in one of the demarcated zones where the ARW is permitted.

3. Two laps have passed after start of the race or after a safety car deployment.

Quote:

3.18.2 The adjustable bodywork may be activated by the driver at any time prior to the start of the race and, for the sole purpose of improving overtaking opportunities during the race, after the driver has completed a minimum of two laps after the race start or following a safety car period.
The driver may only activate the adjustable bodywork in the race when he has been notified via the control electronics (see Article 8.2) that it is enabled. It will only be enabled if the driver is less than one second behind another at any of the pre-determined positions around each circuit. The system will be disabled by the control electronics the first time the driver uses the brakes after he has activated the system.
The FIA may, after consulting all competitors, adjust the above time proximity in order to ensure the stated purpose of the adjustable bodywork is met.


I disagree slightly with WB. I think the ARW has to be dis-activated at the very moment you push the brakes, as regulations clearly state.

I believe that, at that moment, you could need to start to turn (for example, it could happen an accident or something that requires you to stop braking and turn) and you need the down force to move laterally in a predictable manner.

Of course, nothing is instantaneous in this world (except the due date of taxes, perhaps), but... I wouldn't want to drive a race car at the entrance of a curve with less down force than the one the car can develop, specially if I'm closely following another car. It would be dangerous.
Last edited by Ciro Pabón on Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ciro
Ciro Pabón
 
Joined: 10 May 2005

Post Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:37 pm

I would like to see the FIA/WMSC/FOTA go the whole nine yards on the issue, leaving both front- and rear-wing
position at the driver's leisure at all times. That would give back a bit of physical coordination-challenge for his driving,
using right hand again, now that he don't have gear-shifting to worry about.

Think about it.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"
xpensive
 
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Post Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:44 pm

It should all be driver controlled. These artificial rules are going to make the thing a farce in my opinion. 'Activation zones'..... Bleh.

I'd leave it open to the driver so there was as much driver skill required as possible and more potential for variability. That's why I found Gary 'Jordan' Anderson's suggestion of reversing how this is controlled quite interesting.
segedunum
 
Joined: 3 Apr 2007

Post Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:57 pm

I think this year is very demanding in terms of "cockpit load". Besides the ARW, you have:

► the Pirellis that have to be "caressed" or you lose them quite fast (they'll give you 100 km, perhaps 150 tops)

► you'll have more talk with the team (because of team orders allowed)

► you have new full set of strategies in terms of fuel saving: now, fuel saving could be detrimental in the end, unless you gamble you will be able to effectively save it (by using the ARW more than the rest of the field as I argued before by being "towed" by your partner or somebody else) an you place your bet on starting your race with less fuel.

► you have half the down force compared with three or four years ago, so you have to "tip-toe" a lot (besides the considerations of taking care of the new tyres, as Valencia proved)

► the car has a bit more of top speed because it has less drag, because you have less down force, so the car accelerates faster

► most cars have KERS (the "push to not be passed" button, as my friends call it in Indy Cars) so you have to be thinking about the amount of charge the thing has and when to use it

► you have a car that weighs more (20 kilos) and, on top of all that,

► you start your race with a truckload of fuel!

What do you suggest, X? Perhaps if they have to juggle while they drive... ;)

I think, segedunum, that activation zones are there because of safety. Would you want to have Pérez one tenth behind you in the braking zone without down force?
Ciro
Ciro Pabón
 
Joined: 10 May 2005

Post Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:09 pm

If you feel you need activation zones for safety then the idea doesn't work.

That's why I think leaving the gap open and allowing the driver to manually close it himself is interesting. The drivers get used to driving the car with the minimum amount of default downforce possible, which is the safest position to work from I think.

In addition, with the way the rules are you are guaranteed an accident at some point because the rules for where this wing is used means that a driver in front will always be completely helpless in the face of the driver behind. The speed difference just guarantees that Perez will hit you. The downforce might kick back in under braking, but now the guy behind is so close that if he brakes even a metre later you're going to collide.

It's silly.
segedunum
 
Joined: 3 Apr 2007

Post Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:54 pm

That´s a good point, but maybe it always have been the same. If you brake late, well, there is no down force in play at all, ARW or no ARW.

Anyway, I´ll keep that in mind while I see the first race; thanks, segedunum. This has been a pretty interesting thread up to this moment.
Ciro
Ciro Pabón
 
Joined: 10 May 2005

Post Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:03 pm

Oh boy Ciro, are you seriously telling me that this years F1 drivers will have to handle a fast car full of fuel without an infinite amount of downfore and tyres that lasts forever, while they actually have to think at the same time?

Gee I'm sorry, had no idea, guess no driver have had to cope with all that in the past?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"
xpensive
 
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Post Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:28 pm

Ciro Pabón wrote:Of course, nothing is instantaneous in this world (except the due date of taxes, perhaps), but... I wouldn't want to drive a race car at the entrance of a curve with less down force than the one the car can develop, specially if I'm closely following another car. It would be dangerous.

Some of the teams are thinking the same way.
Mercedes GP and, I think, Williams drivers have to keep the button pressed to keep rear wing on low drag position. When they release the button, rear wing come to its normal position.

Rosberg was talking about that about 1 week ago and explained that ARW usage is a little bit weird at the moment
Nico Rosberg wrote:I tried the moveable rear wing. That takes some getting used to because you push the button and the thing goes down on the back so you feel a little bit that the car gets lighter and then you release the button again before the braking and you think “Geez, what if this thing hasn’t gone back to its old position?” – [because] then you’re off in a big way.

It’s not too different to the KERS, but still the rear wing moves and you don’t really know how quick does it get back into its normal working area once you release the button again.

With the KERS we could release very late when we were braking, and that was a kind of natural way of doing it, quite late. And now you don’t really know. [Do it] too late and it’s not going to be properly attached


edit:
Ciro Pabón wrote:That´s a good point, but maybe it always have been the same. If you brake late, well, there is no down force in play at all, ARW or no ARW.

Braking repartition is related to tyre load, so downforce. Furthermore, you have less drag with ARW activated. Drag is usefull too to slow down the car: releasing F1 throttle at 300km/h is like shooting the brakes on a normal car.
Lurk
 
Joined: 13 Feb 2010

Post Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:07 pm

It's a good idea the rear wing, but I don't think anyone who thought up this idea have thought it through well enough. Artificially bringing cars closer together at 200 mph and artifically putting in safety zones is not my idea of success.
segedunum
 
Joined: 3 Apr 2007

Post Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:27 am

Well, seg, the problem as I see it comes from the conflicting reasons given for this development.

On one hand, you have to make the cars "road relevant". Thus, you try to give them fuel economy (whatever that means in an F1 car). There is an stated goal, approved by ALL teams of 50% less drag and 50% less down force.

On the other hand, you have to make the cars "entertaning", which means you have to do that, while keeping top speed and lap times. This is the second goal.

Can you figure out any other solution? This one sounded pretty clever to me, back in 2007 when it appeared. It gives you both goals.

Although it was established this was going to be included among 2011 rules, nobody complained back then.

I cannot imagine an alternative. I hope somebody do.

Thanks, Lurk, I haven't thought of drag braking. Good point. Rosberg´s remarks are logical, thanks also for your quotes, pretty explanatory.
Ciro
Ciro Pabón
 
Joined: 10 May 2005

Post Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:20 am

Obviously the default position of the wing flap is down. We cannot know at this time the full functionality of the device. I would consider that they could use any of three modes to terminate the low drag configuration:

  • Driver gets off the ARW button
  • End of activation zone is reached
  • Brakes are pushed

I don't know if it works that way but it would be consistent with the fail safe idea.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
WhiteBlue
 
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Location: WhiteBlue Country

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