New ECU regulations

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.

Post Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:46 pm

I'm a little confused as to why the FIA brought in the ruling for a single supply ECU.

What I don't understand is the whole point of the single ECU was to make it less open to interpretation. It would seem that is not the case. Before teams where using a map setting to give a form of traction control. It was complex and the FIA couldn't cope with it so they made TC legal.

How do we know they haven't gone back to using a form of TC using engine mapping as it seems anything goes just about??

Does anyone know what exactly they are allowed to change from the steering wheel and what has to be altered by connecting to the ecu/car with a laptop?
Danny_W
 
Joined: 30 Mar 2011

Post Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:58 pm

A range of different ECUs will have an equally wide range of different ways to program them, necessitating different pieces of software to analyse the code. Reducing this down to a single ECU operating system means that it is easier to police as the FIA software analysts will only have to specialise in one system.

If one ECU is hard for the FIA to understand, imagine what it would be like with one ECU for every engine manufacturer and different mappings developed by each team.

The standard ECU was a way to simplify the policing of electronic systems, but it cannot be a magic bullet.
"Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine ..."
gridwalker
 
Joined: 27 Mar 2009
Location: Sheffield, UK

Post Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:15 pm

Thanks :)

With regards the hot blowing on the Red Bull this can't have been something that escaped their knowledge since last July when James Allen wrote about it.

I presume to avoid punishment they have to run each map change past the FIA?
Danny_W
 
Joined: 30 Mar 2011

Post Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:21 pm

I believe ECU holds multi-able engine maps.

These maps were not under any controls up to this point and not subject to approval.

Brian
hardingfv32
 
Joined: 3 Apr 2011

Post Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:59 pm

Danny_W wrote:I presume to avoid punishment they have to run each map change past the FIA?


To my knolege, they dont have to run engine masp past the FIA first, however this could change now.

hardingfv32 wrote:I believe ECU holds multi-able engine maps.

These maps were not under any controls up to this point and not subject to approval.

Brian


Each team has diffrent maps, i just downloaded the BBC F1 buildup to Bracelona recently and when Di Resta was going thrugh his #2 steering wheel options, the multi map rotary switch had 12 diffrent paramiters. That says to me that they need more maps for their car to manage their tires better. However most teams have 10 maps usually split into 2 for wet tires, 2 for inters and then 6 for dry tires.

However, Sauber has a 4 way switch for what tire they are on, and this gives them 10 maps per tire setting, whitch means they by the looks of things have 40 maps on board.

The drivers have up to 7 rotary switches on their steering wheel, and double as many buttons. One thing that has been discussed earier this season was to limit roatary switches and buttons on the steering wheel. This so far hasnt made any inroads, but id expect that there be regulation of the steeringwheel soon in F1.

However there has also been a suggestion of a standardised steeringwheel as well so that a driver like De La Roasa can hop in the Sauber and not have a foregn steering wheel in front of him. I think this is a step too far, but the regulation of buttons and switches would be a good idea to let drivers race and not worry about changing this setting or that setting during a race.

Id like to see settings be maintained for 2 full laps before a change is permitted again, to give drivers more time to race.
ESPImperium
 
Joined: 5 Apr 2008
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Post Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:43 am

Hi all, de-lurking to ask a question about this ECU business. I don't normally post here, just read, as you guys are too scary clever for me!!! :) Anyway...

These map switches on the steering wheels; do they change variables with in the loaded map or do they actually swap one complete map for another one? If they do actually swap the whole map, then what happens to the engine and other systems as the old map is unloaded and the new on loaded. Would there not be a dead zone, and a brief hit in performance for the time there is no map in memory?

What makes me wonder is that is has been said that Red Bull would have to pit in order to change from a qually map to a race map. Why do that if the driver can flick a switch?

I wonder if these map changes that people refer to are in fact changes to the loaded map, and not a complete change of that loaded map.

Cheers
The Two Black Lines.......
skidmark
 
Joined: 25 Nov 2003

Post Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:36 am

They swap the whole map we think. That is what the steering wheel controls would imply.

If you consider that every cycle of each cylinder is controlled it would not seem like a difficult task to change maps on the fly. Maybe there is a buffer of a few rpm, say 10-20, between the maps.

We are not sure why they need to change maps after qualifying.

Maybe they just want all the non-qualifying options they can get.

Brian
hardingfv32
 
Joined: 3 Apr 2011

Post Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:13 am

Ok, seeing as throttle maps are the topic du jour (so to speak) I have a question that dates back to before I joined the forum : many years ago, I remember the FIA moving to abolish "3D engine maps" but I am not certain what the 3D part of that means. I know that policing advanced mapping systems like this was part of the argument behind moving to the standard ECU, but I never found out what a 3D engine map does ... can anyone shed some light?
"Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine ..."
gridwalker
 
Joined: 27 Mar 2009
Location: Sheffield, UK

Post Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:32 pm

There are more qualified people on this forum, so let them explain the details. meanwhile I thing that not only 3D but multi-dimensional maps are used even on ordinary road cars. Or am I wrong?
F1PitRadio ‏@F1PitRadio : MSC, "Sorry guys, there's not more in it"
Spa 2012
Dragonfly
 
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Location: Bulgaria

Post Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:19 pm

gridwalker wrote:Ok, seeing as throttle maps are the topic du jour (so to speak) I have a question that dates back to before I joined the forum : many years ago, I remember the FIA moving to abolish "3D engine maps" but I am not certain what the 3D part of that means. I know that policing advanced mapping systems like this was part of the argument behind moving to the standard ECU, but I never found out what a 3D engine map does ... can anyone shed some light?


no expert in this matter, so allways open to be corrected by someone more knowledgeable.
But, for what it is worth, I think we should differentiate between a throttle map and a engine map.
I think the term "engine map" is perhaps a bit of a missnormer.
Within the "mapping of the engine" you will find many different maps, like ignition map, injection map etc. etc.
I would say, that today allmost any single map is at least a 3D map.
as an example here a ignition map

Image

A 3D map, is nothing more then a 3 dimensional table to look up values.
The output variable (ignition timing in this case) will be defined by two other variables, in this case rpm and load (manifold pressue/vacuum for example).

In a 2D map, the output variable would only be defined by one input variable.
Ignition timing vs. rpm for example. It´s a simple look up table.

Image

the output variable can now be used in other calculations or in another table.
in engine maps, this is sometimes refered to as corrections. Which means that the output variable get´s "corrected" by other variables, like water temperature, exhaust temp, knock sensor signals etc.

With modern simulation tools and more powerful computers (ECU calculation speed and memory size) it would be possible to anticipate/calculate in "real time" the power/torque output of the engine, based on injection/ignition timing.
Sure that´s very simplified, as things like inertia and other factors play into this as well.
But what the ECU could do, providing it is powerful enough (speed/memory), and the models accurate enough, is to calculate how much torque my rear wheels can handle under the current conditions.
For this the ECU would need to run a vehicle model, accounting for things like tire slip curves, lat/long acceleration/ yaw rate/ velocity / aeroforces/downforce etc.) then it could adjust the power/torque output of the engine to not exceeding the grip available. If you like traction control before the fact.
A old style traction control would sense that the tires have exceeded their grip limit, and that you have now wheelspin, trying to cut back on the input to come back into the area where the tire grips again.
The "new" controllers try to anticipate this limit, and trying to operate as close as possible to the limit line.
10 years ago, the controllers where probably not powerful engough to perform all this calculations in real time, but with ever increasing hardware performance it becomes more and more possible.

I can´t remember exactly what the FIA has banned back in the days, possible it was a 3D throttle map, as this would be on of the core parameters of a torque controller.
In an engine with a direct mechanical link between the throttle pedal and the throttle body at the engine, the opening of the engine throttle is a direct function (not neccessary linear) of the pedal position.
Early/simple drive by wire systems would just "mimic" such a mechanical link, newer torque controller layouts as used in F1 now and in most modern road cars with drive by wire, will use the throttle pedal imput only as a "torque request/ go-pedal if you like" and adjust the throttle at the engine, the ingnition and injection accordingly to ensure the best possible engine response to the request of the driver.
With this there is better control over the A/F ratio, as you can adjust the air (throttle at the engine) and the Fuel (injector opening/fuel pressure) seperate.
With an "old style" throttle, the driver would define the air component directly with the pedal position, even if it is not ideal, the ECU then could only suppply fuel and ignition timing.
I think (put I could be wrong) that Ferrari and some others had early versions of torque controllers back in the days after T/C was banned, making it for the driver more easy to get the power down, using something like an open loop/forward looking controll.
Back in the days, this would requiere some powerful ECU´s and advanced programming, which perhaps was not widely availible at the time.
Today a torque controller is a pretty standard layout, even in road cars and all F1 engine using it.
Sure some are better then others, but this is with allmost anything the case.
If F1 goes to Direct Injection, "perfect(er)" control will be much easier to achieve, as the fuel rate can be much better controlled.
With port injection, you need to account for things like wall wetting and port dryout etc, meaning you need more "fudge factors" in your calculations.
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci
747heavy
 
Joined: 6 Jul 2010

Post Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:23 pm

Thanks for that 747H; it has cleared up a lot of stuff that I had assumed to be the case but had never seen written down, plus a few unexpected bonus facts. Great post =D>
"Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine ..."
gridwalker
 
Joined: 27 Mar 2009
Location: Sheffield, UK

Post Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:56 pm

Thanks gridwalker,

What I forgot to mention, (but perhaps is obvious), the 3D tables are not allways static (most of them are not), so the informations written into this table (map) will be continously updated my other calculations (sensors). This is what sometimes is refered to as "corrections".
Let´s say (just as an example, don´t get hung up on the values), in the posted table 25% load @ 3500rpm mean 10° ignition advance.
If now another parameter goes into another range (water temp, goes over 90°C for example) this value maybe is now just 8° insted of 10° and so on.
Depending on your engine/ECU progamming you will have some limits as for how much one sensor(table) can change the other/overall maping.

Maybe the knock sensor can only alter ingnition timing by +/- 5° (just an example). so if this is not enough, the engine will still knock. You will also need to have "default" values in case you loose a sensors, or the sensors produces "wrong/not logical" values.

In this case, most ECU will stop using the values of this sensor in their calculations and use a "default value" instead.

Some race series (V8Supercars for example) put limits on some values to prevent "creative" maping.

I don´t have the correct value on top of my head, but there is an limit as to how much you can alter your ignition timming (for examples sake let´s say -35° - +5°
- in this case means before TDC and + after TDC and referce to ° crankshaft angle).

But such limitations will only work with a given ECU/hardware, as otherwise it will be very hard to police, and would requiere indeep knowledge of the used controller architecture.
That´s one reason, why some (most) race series (DTM,F3,TC2000,V8SC etc.) and now F1 use a mandatory ECU, and limit the number and type of input channels/sensors you can use.
Last edited by 747heavy on Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci
747heavy
 
Joined: 6 Jul 2010

Post Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:12 pm

just an example (pulled from the web)of an 3D throttle map, where throttle position on the engine varies for a given throttle pedal input.

Image

As you see, if you would hold the throttle pedal constant at ~50% the engine throttle position will vary between 30% and 100% as the engine is pulling through the revs.
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci
747heavy
 
Joined: 6 Jul 2010

Post Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:09 pm

Thanks Skidmark and 747, very good posts, especially Skidmark's i think has answered a few of the questions i had about this.
Alejandro L.
alelanza
 
Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Location: San José, Costa Rica

Post Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:38 pm

I was sure the right people will answer. :)
=D>
F1PitRadio ‏@F1PitRadio : MSC, "Sorry guys, there's not more in it"
Spa 2012
Dragonfly
 
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Location: Bulgaria

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