Shoulder profile of nose

[raymondu999]

Would the "shoulder" of a nose, and of the bit joining the front part of the chassis (the bit between the cockpit and the front nose) be of much importance? I'm talking of kind of where the vertical "wall" of the chassis meets the top surface. Would that have significant impact? I have a friend who is absolutely convinced, and he says his theory is backed by an F1 aerodynamicist, that one of the key reasons McLaren isn't as fast as the Red Bull is the way that said "shoulder" on the McLaren has a squarer profile and the Red Bull's one has a rounder profile

[timbo]

Of course it has an influence. But an F1 car design being a bunch of compromises, I don't think you can point one design or another as having a clear cut advantage.
Speaking of round noses -- one of the crappiest Ferrari's ever, F92A had a beautifully rounded nose design

[raymondu999]

timbo - what are those advantages and disadvantages, each way? A boundary layer of sorts?

[timbo]

timbo - what are those advantages and disadvantages, each way? A boundary layer of sorts?

The rounder shape has lower drag theoretically, due to lower area.
But because the front of the car is basically used to guide air downstream, those factors are of little importance IMO. And don't forget you have also packaging, safety and rigidity to care for, so there's many, many things that can play both ways.

[Just_a_fan]

Ironically, the McLaren is faster than the RedBull it's just not as quick around some types of corner. And the idea that the profile of the front of the monocoque makes the difference between the two is, um, optimistic.

The RedBull is quicker because it has more downforce. The McLaren is faster because it has less drag (probably because it has less downforce).

Note: here "fast" being about top speed and "quick" being about cornering speed.

[wesley123]

We know that wasnt really the case. The Red Bull just was faster on almost any track, the only track we can say it was different was in Hungary. The McLaren seemed to have more peak df where the Red Bull is more efficient.

[raymondu999]

Really? I would've said the opposite.

[wesley123]

Based on seeing the car I would say the same, but theory showed different. Although it isnt really fair, the McLAren ran way more wing at every track, which adds drag. Putting on same AoA I would say the McLaren is less draggy though

[Just_a_fan]

Exactly. They had a fundamentally less draggy car which means it had fundamentally less downforce. They ran more wing because it was the only way to get the downforce. The RB had the downforce without the wing.

[ringo]

Squarer is better in straight line. the round has more lift, because of the zones of pressure on the round corners that spill over the top side, and for the bottom side. Round only has a small advantage in transient in the turns, but this is not substantial. This is my observation from cfd.

[raymondu999]

Ringo you've done some CFD on it? Maybe you could post the screenshots here for the benefit of all?

[timbo]

Squarer is better in straight line. the round has more lift, because of the zones of pressure on the round corners that spill over the top side, and for the bottom side.

That would be totally dependent on AoA, isn't it?

[godlameroso]

McLaren had the best engine mapping and as no surprise it excelled in corners where throttle application is key, such as China, Spain, Germany, Japan, these tracks all have corners with blind apexes. Blind in the sense that you don't use a landmark to break turn-in etc, but rather you must trail brake and throttle out of the corner. The turn where Button got Vettel in Montreal required just such a technique. The Red Bull chassis had great downforce, and something no one else had, the pointiest(in the sense of turn-in ability) nose on the grid. Kudos to Vettel for taming something so prone to oversteer. Australia made apparent the strength of the RB7, any clearly defined apex was it's hunting ground. If you watch the onboard lap you see he barely lifted through 11-12.

[raymondu999]

I don't think the nose of the RB7 is strongest to be honest. The McLaren has had that IMO. You just have to look at Nurburgring Turn 1 to see that McLaren were just about the only team that could hit the apex. In the long slow corners such as the slow hairpin in Nurburgring; you could also see that while others started to wash out and almost had to take the corner as a double apex, Lewis' onboard was showing him to be very happily "hugging the apex like his favorite granny."

[wesley123]

I agree here, the McLaren front end was simply incredible, it was incredibly responsive to driver input. The front end of the McLAren was simply the best. Where you sometimes saw the Red Bull understeer a bit, the McLaren stayed pointy.