Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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dren
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

Postby dren » Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:45 am

I think this may be a car where we see bolt on downforce when they start to look for performance. I'm curious to some of the exhaust set-ups the teams will show at the next test.
Honda!

diego1960
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

Postby diego1960 » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:27 am

I would rather fear that there is not much to improve on this car, sidepods are sleek, CoG is lower than in W02, there is the EED and an all-new FW. Now, apart from the exhaust only minor things could change at least on the outside. Different set-ups should also be evaluated as they are key to performance most of the time. Obviously I would rather prefer that I am wrong and there are a a number of planned updates down the line such as a new diffuser, fine-tuned FW and maybe a revised front suspension but I do not consider it very possible.
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Rikhart
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

Postby Rikhart » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:03 am

diego1960 wrote:I would rather fear that there is not much to improve on this car, sidepods are sleek, CoG is lower than in W02, there is the EED and an all-new FW. Now, apart from the exhaust only minor things could change at least on the outside. Different set-ups should also be evaluated as they are key to performance most of the time. Obviously I would rather prefer that I am wrong and there are a a number of planned updates down the line such as a new diffuser, fine-tuned FW and maybe a revised front suspension but I do not consider it very possible.


You can pretty much say the same about red bull, ever since the rb5...What has changed, externally?

marcush.
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

Postby marcush. » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:11 am

I think W03 does not suffer from bad efficiency as did the last two cars.The old cars had good straightline speed but adding downforce would have slowed them as efficiency losses canceled out all gains made by adding normal force.
If your basic design is already producing competitive normal force AND you still have the downforce levels required ,you open up a window of setup opportunities -adding downforce + drag and still competitive lap times..

Fredy4
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

Postby Fredy4 » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:13 am

I think straight line speed will still be a priority for them, but they certainly wont just rest on that.

They have the best engine on the grid (for power) so thats a good start, it means they can run a tiny tiny bit more downforce yet still do the same speed. There is no way Mercedes dont cherry pick the engines so you can bet every single race they have a better engine than Mclaren etc.

The F-Duct front wing wont give as much as a rear wing like that (I think) but even if it's worth 5 KPH they can still use that as 'free' downforce.

So they have an engine and a wing on their side. Because of this I think they will still be the fastet on the straights, but more importantly they will be running more downforce for the rest of the lap.

I dont want to get giddy too soon, but can see a lot of potential in this car.

Conversly I see the other top teams having potentail weaknesses. In particular RB now that blowing loophole is closed.

The FIA said noody was using it, but you look at any test video and the RB clearly was.

Ross mentioned this loophole months ago. I think he purposfully let people like RB go down that road. Make them waste development time on it then a few weeks before the first race get it banned.

marcush.
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

Postby marcush. » Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:58 pm

abit of a mystery is their trouble to make the front wheels last.According to Rosberg this was one of the main deveelopment areas for the last day but they could not solve that issue...so we can conclude the car is not yet fully understood by the team .
Hopefully they find a solution to make them last and that should improve their longruns dramatically (you don´t have to nurse the fronts and can exploit the rears more...) so there is hope but also fear.
Funny how they swing from front tyre eating W01 to rear tyre eating W02 and back to front tyre eating W03.. :roll:

ArchAngel
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

Postby ArchAngel » Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:04 pm

Where was this front tire issue mentioned, Marcush? Probably explains why the team also tried the 2011 front wing during Rosberg's turn behind the W03?

FrukostScones
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

Postby FrukostScones » Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:25 pm

marcush. wrote:abit of a mystery is their trouble to make the front wheels last.According to Rosberg this was one of the main deveelopment areas for the last day but they could not solve that issue...so we can conclude the car is not yet fully understood by the team .
Hopefully they find a solution to make them last and that should improve their longruns dramatically (you don´t have to nurse the fronts and can exploit the rears more...) so there is hope but also fear.
Funny how they swing from front tyre eating W01 to rear tyre eating W02 and back to front tyre eating W03.. :roll:


much longer wheelbase, stronger rear tyres, same weight distrubution...

there go the front tyres!
W07 is here. Game Over!

diego1960
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

Postby diego1960 » Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:09 pm

It is really frustrating to have tyre issues of any kind for three years in a row. I must add though that I believe now with Costa on board that this will no longer be an issue. If I remember correctly it's his area of expertise and the Ferrari's he designed were specifically mild on the tyres. I can't understand why they would use the old FW though, if they had tyre issues wouldn't they need to have as much downforce as possible in the front to minimize the graining?
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose." - Ayrton Senna

marcush.
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

Postby marcush. » Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:12 pm

from german website motorsport total:

Rosberg freut sich hingegen, dass bereits an den Feinheiten des W03 gearbeitet werden konnte: "Wir haben viel Setup- und Detailarbeit gemacht. Es gab aber auch einige Dinge, die nicht besser waren. Wir haben mechanische Änderungen gemacht, um die Reifen über die Distanz zu bringen. Die Vorderreifen gehen sehr schnell kaputt. Das wollten wir verbessern, aber es hat sich nicht verändert."
"Wir haben versucht, eine Balance zwischen Performance und Reifenverschleiß zu erhalten", erklärt Brawn. "Bisher sieht es nicht schlecht aus. Barcelona ist keine gewöhnliche Strecke. Es gibt viele schnelle Rechtskurven. Da fehlt dann der Grip."

http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/news ... 22504.html

basically Rosberg says they have tried everything possible at the track(Setup wise) to to make the tyres survive the distance but they were unable to impove that situation .

when Brawn basically says ,thing look good and the front tyre degradation is more a Barcelona issue with all those quick right handers. ..

marcush.
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

Postby marcush. » Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:18 pm

adding normal force is a measure of diminishing returns adding normal force will of course load the tyre more ,but who said the tyre was not already overloaded and that would render adding doqwnforce as counterproductive.

We have seen the car showing a lot of body roll ..could it be they unload their inner wheels too much and the result is they overwork the outside tyre? It´s very simple yes but that´s how I see their car .

diego1960
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

Postby diego1960 » Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:28 pm

What is that body roll that I keep reading here? Does it mean that the car is sliding/oversteering in the corners? Thanks in advance.
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose." - Ayrton Senna

Ferraripilot
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

Postby Ferraripilot » Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:29 pm

marcush. wrote:adding normal force is a measure of diminishing returns adding normal force will of course load the tyre more ,but who said the tyre was not already overloaded and that would render adding doqwnforce as counterproductive.

We have seen the car showing a lot of body roll ..could it be they unload their inner wheels too much and the result is they overwork the outside tyre? It´s very simple yes but that´s how I see their car .



I believe the body roll we are seeing is simply due to the soft front end on the car. They probably need to be careful with the front end positive camber (not add too much) with these more squared Pirelli tires. Meaning the tires are probably in great shape while turning but aren't as happy just going straight.

Pierce89
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

Postby Pierce89 » Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:51 pm

dren wrote:I think this may be a car where we see bolt on downforce when they start to look for performance. I'm curious to some of the exhaust set-ups the teams will show at the next test.

I think so too. But, it's a matter of effiency and balance, so bolt=om downforce can help cover a shortcoming in the short term, but in the long term MGP is going to have to create cars with better CL and L/D in the first place. Taking a FAST car like the W03 and bolting on downforce can also hurt it's original positive traits(low drag) more than it helps( see W02) so maybe they'll be stuck in low drag trim, but I truly think this car has potential. I could possibly even see Merc in a straight fight with the big three by mid-seaso(I don't, however, think they'll start quite on Ferrari's level).

Overall though, I like the back to basics design of the W03. By that I mean they went more conventional rather than being too clever by half, like they did on the W02.(SWB, crappy EBD etc.)

Mods: Feel free to move me to the team thread but I felt like a discussion of characteristics should go here.
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yace
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

Postby yace » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:30 pm

Image

a comparison between the real W03 with the teaser
ImageImageImage




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