Mandatory coldstart NO preheated oil or coolant allowed

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.

Post Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:04 am

bill shoe wrote:
Lurk wrote:Renault recently reveals some F1 engine particularity on a public web note (maybe it was only in french?). They said that F1 engine cannot do cold start physically. Piston is slightly oval while cylinder is round and so the piston is stucked in the cylinder. When heated up & due to thermal dilatation, piston & cylinder get their "working" shapes and engine can be started. If I remember well, minimum temperature was 50°C.

A shame the website I saw it do not keep a lot of archives, I cannot retrieve it :|

Interesting. If there is an interference fit between cylinder and piston at ambient temp, this implies the pistons must be assembled into the engine when the block and pistons are warm (~50C).


If a temperature differential was required for assembly would it not be more in keeping with standard engineering practice to freeze one of the parts as opposed to heating the other?
Thank you to God for making me an Atheist - Ricky Gervais.
simieski
 
Joined: 29 Jul 2011

Post Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:59 am

Dragonfly wrote:
elmerfud wrote:nah man! bring back qualifying motors that hit the dust bin after 1hr, more exotic is NICE!!!

I know it's a dream now, but I like it :)

[-o<
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher
Pierce89
 
Joined: 21 Oct 2009

Post Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:02 am

Jersey Tom wrote:There is no road relevance for F1 cars. Never has been, never will be, so let's dispense with the bull.

Maybe that should be my sig.

Would be a good one.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher
Pierce89
 
Joined: 21 Oct 2009

Post Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:03 pm

Jersey Tom wrote:There is no road relevance for F1 cars. Never has been, never will be, so let's dispense with the bull.

Slow down, mister.

Image
bhall
 
Joined: 28 Feb 2006

Post Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:45 pm

Calling a ~600hp hand built GT a road car is a bit of a stretch. YOu could also include the flexi-wing of the 458 and paddle shifting if you really wanted to.

But I can't think of a single thing common between an F1 car and a Fiat Panda or Ford Fiesta. F1 doesn't even use lead wheel weights anymore to balance the wheels. They are tin.

Funny how here in Canada, in the prairies and north people need to use block heaters just to turn their engine in the AM so removing the preheating would be _less_ road relevant to me.

But I agree with JT. The only real new bits are all aero, and road car aero is completely different and for the most part, perfected.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute
Giblet
 
Joined: 19 Mar 2007
Location: Downtown Canada

Post Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:56 pm

My tongue was firmly planted in-cheek when I pointed to the F1-inspired rain light on that 740 bhp road-going GT.
bhall
 
Joined: 28 Feb 2006

Post Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:43 pm

simieski wrote:If a temperature differential was required for assembly would it not be more in keeping with standard engineering practice to freeze one of the parts as opposed to heating the other?


No, either method is acceptable.

Brian
hardingfv32
 
Joined: 3 Apr 2011

Post Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:06 am

I believe that although the engineering in F1 by poles away from road cars, there will ALWAYS be road relevance, and a trickle down of technology.

Ferrari pioneered the semi-auto box in 89.
Honda brought fly-by -wire throttles and V-TEC into F1 in 91.
The big oil companies pioneer their refinement of fuels and lubricants in F1.
Electronics too. In Oz a 1998 Ford sedan uses the same ECU as used on the 1994 Cosworth Zetec V8, with which Schumi became world champion.

By maintaining the exotic nature of F1, it forces more innovative solutions, which in time, find their way to us. Aspiring to win is the only way manufacturers can justify the massive expense that it requires. If we dumbed down the sport, I don't think this will be the case.
bigpat
 
Joined: 29 Mar 2012

Post Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:52 am

To be fair, I actually like ideas like this. Anything that increases the likelyhood of engines breaking is a good thing. F1 engines are now over engineered for the task, it's why you just don't see many engine blowups even with extended usage.

To all those saying that piston to bore is transition/light intereference fit until it's up to temperature, so you can't do a cold start. The engineering challenge then beomces reducing wear at cold running whilst not losing performance.


Also technology transfer is not just about gadgets. Heat treatments, coatings, manufacturing and assembly methods aren't as 'cool' but is very transferrable knowledge.


Eg, a bore coating that reduces running friciton by 10% at the top end, is never going to get the same press as a bolt on gizmo that gives a 1% performance advantage. Or a little widget that fiddles with the air a bit.
xxChrisxx
 
Joined: 18 Sep 2009

Post Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:58 am

With the right kind of energy recovery unit on the powertrain, it is possible to run the vehicle on electric power only and use any heat from the electric motor system to pre-warm the ic engine before starting it.
There would also be no need for the ic engine to do any over run brakeing, so the design direction would be more focused.
autogyro
 
Joined: 4 Oct 2009

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