2014 Turbos and driving style

[raymondu999]

I was just thinking back and brushing up on my Senna history - Senna used to kind of blip the throttle constantly to keep the turbo spooled; and to eliminate turbo lag. Would such a thing be possible/needed/beneficial with the 2014 turbos?

[nae]

if the eletricary can blow the exhuast on the over run I can not see them having any problem 'spooling' the turbo even when off throttle. depends on the rules by then.

althought I would predict the FIA would wait till mid season to sort it out.

[raymondu999]

Didn't the FIA send out a clarification saying that basically no overrun was allowed for next year and the pedal had to be purely a torque switch to accelerate the car?

[Dragonfly]

For the moment AFAIK the rules allow the TERS to contribute to energy generation into a common storage but the MGU can be used only to spool the turbo as it must be connected only to the turbo shaft.
In this case they won't have the problems from the previous turbo period.
But maybe if a driver is able to eliminate lag by blipping the throttle and thus save electric energy it could provide the KERS with more energy to use during a lap. Of course within the limits set by the rules. Depends on how fast energy can be recuperated to charge the batteries.

Didn't the FIA send out a clarification saying that basically no overrun was allowed for next year and the pedal had to be purely a torque switch to accelerate the car?

I think this does not apply if the throttle is operated by the driver, i.e. no special modes and engine maps.

[bigpat]

Turbo technology has come on leaps and bounds since then. Back in the turbo era, they used to be plain journal bearing turbos, where now, ball bearing cores spin up much quicker. Also, the aerodynamics of turbos are much more advanced, with broader power bands ( boost range).

Also now road and race cars used variable geometry turbos, where you get low speed response and top end power in one. Most famously, last years' Le Mans winning Audi R18's were equipped with V/G turbos, so I can't see lag being an issue in 2014...

[WhiteBlue]

For the moment AFAIK the rules allow the TERS to contribute to energy generation into a common storage but the MGU can be used only to spool the turbo as it must be connected only to the turbo shaft.
In this case they won't have the problems from the previous turbo period.
But maybe if a driver is able to eliminate lag by blipping the throttle and thus save electric energy it could provide the KERS with more energy to use during a lap. Of course within the limits set by the rules. Depends on how fast energy can be recuperated to charge the batteries.

Didn't the FIA send out a clarification saying that basically no overrun was allowed for next year and the pedal had to be purely a torque switch to accelerate the car?

I think this does not apply if the throttle is operated by the driver, i.e. no special modes and engine maps.

You may be right there, but you are using all the wrong terminology. This is really confusing.

The 2014 power trains will not have KERS. They will have a unit called MGUK which will do similar things as KERS used to do but with a wider scope.

There will be a second motor generator unit (MGU) called MGUH. This MGUH (H for heat) will be located on the turbo shaft. It will be used to spool up the compressor when the turbine is not providing enough torque to the compressor requirement. Hence we need not worry about turbo lag as the engines of the eighties used to have.

When the turbine is providing torque and power beyond the compressor requirement the MGUH assumes the role of a generator and adsorbs the excessive torque and power in order to generate electricity that is send to the MGUK. The MGUK at that time will be in motor mode and will provide additional torque and power to the power train.

[bigpat]

For the moment AFAIK the rules allow the TERS to contribute to energy generation into a common storage but the MGU can be used only to spool the turbo as it must be connected only to the turbo shaft.
In this case they won't have the problems from the previous turbo period.
But maybe if a driver is able to eliminate lag by blipping the throttle and thus save electric energy it could provide the KERS with more energy to use during a lap. Of course within the limits set by the rules. Depends on how fast energy can be recuperated to charge the batteries.

Didn't the FIA send out a clarification saying that basically no overrun was allowed for next year and the pedal had to be purely a torque switch to accelerate the car?

I think this does not apply if the throttle is operated by the driver, i.e. no special modes and engine maps.

You may be right there, but you are using all the wrong terminology. This is really confusing.

The 2014 power trains will not have KERS. They will have a unit called MGUK which will do similar things as KERS used to do but with a wider scope.

There will be a second motor generator unit (MGU) called MGUH. This MGUH (H for heat) will be located on the turbo shaft. It will be used to spool up the compressor when the turbine is not providing enough torque to the compressor requirement. Hence we need not worry about turbo lag as the engines of the eighties used to have.

When the turbine is providing torque and power beyond the compressor requirement the MGUH assumes the role of a generator and adsorbs the excessive torque and power in order to generate electricity that is send to the MGUK. The MGUK at that time will be in motor mode and will provide additional torque and power to the power train.

...Well there you go.

[riff_raff]

You may be right there, but you are using all the wrong terminology. This is really confusing.

The 2014 power trains will not have KERS. They will have a unit called MGUK which will do similar things as KERS used to do but with a wider scope.

There will be a second motor generator unit (MGU) called MGUH. This MGUH (H for heat) will be located on the turbo shaft. It will be used to spool up the compressor when the turbine is not providing enough torque to the compressor requirement. Hence we need not worry about turbo lag as the engines of the eighties used to have.

When the turbine is providing torque and power beyond the compressor requirement the MGUH assumes the role of a generator and adsorbs the excessive torque and power in order to generate electricity that is send to the MGUK. The MGUK at that time will be in motor mode and will provide additional torque and power to the power train.

WhiteBlue,

Admittedly, I'm not up to speed on the 2014 regulations. But integrating a motor/generator into a race engine turbo spool is no simple task.

As others noted, turbo lag is not the problem it used to be 20 years ago. Compressor and turbine wheel aerodynamics have greatly improved, and so have the turbo's mechanical components. With modest boost levels, modern turbos would be very responsive.

Adding a PM motor/generator rotor would significantly increase inertia of the turbo spool. There is a lot of power transfer within a conventional turbocharger. Turbochargers are dynamic devices designed to operate based on a balance between intake and exhaust gas flows. While it would be fairly straightforward to design a turbo-generator that could absorb any excess exhaust energy, getting the same electrical device to provide sufficient motor power to accelerate a high inertia turbo spool at a suitable response rate would be much more difficult. There have been numerous electrical turbo-compound systems successfully demonstrated. But these systems were almost all operated at steady state conditions.

[Scuderia Nuvolari]

Can you make a compound flywheel that will work symbiotically with a compound tubocharger?
One that could spool up the turbo at low rpm's and be driven by the turbo at high rpms. The flywheel in the middle with it's vacume chamber and an internal clutch to either engage at high rpms or dissengage at low. With a stronger drive side compressor.
Of course to me these don't seem to fit any rules which this idea tends to steer away from any standard industry parts.
Would the flywheel pull to much power to be efficient?

[WhiteBlue]

You may be right there, but you are using all the wrong terminology. This is really confusing.

The 2014 power trains will not have KERS. They will have a unit called MGUK which will do similar things as KERS used to do but with a wider scope.

There will be a second motor generator unit (MGU) called MGUH. This MGUH (H for heat) will be located on the turbo shaft. It will be used to spool up the compressor when the turbine is not providing enough torque to the compressor requirement. Hence we need not worry about turbo lag as the engines of the eighties used to have.

When the turbine is providing torque and power beyond the compressor requirement the MGUH assumes the role of a generator and adsorbs the excessive torque and power in order to generate electricity that is send to the MGUK. The MGUK at that time will be in motor mode and will provide additional torque and power to the power train.

WhiteBlue,

Admittedly, I'm not up to speed on the 2014 regulations. But integrating a motor/generator into a race engine turbo spool is no simple task.

As others noted, turbo lag is not the problem it used to be 20 years ago. Compressor and turbine wheel aerodynamics have greatly improved, and so have the turbo's mechanical components. With modest boost levels, modern turbos would be very responsive.

Adding a PM motor/generator rotor would significantly increase inertia of the turbo spool. There is a lot of power transfer within a conventional turbocharger. Turbochargers are dynamic devices designed to operate based on a balance between intake and exhaust gas flows. While it would be fairly straightforward to design a turbo-generator that could absorb any excess exhaust energy, getting the same electrical device to provide sufficient motor power to accelerate a high inertia turbo spool at a suitable response rate would be much more difficult. There have been numerous electrical turbo-compound systems successfully demonstrated. But these systems were almost all operated at steady state conditions.

We are talking some significant power numbers here. The MGU is expected to be rated at 50-90 kW. The electric high torque servo motors are supposed to spool up very quickly. All I can say is that there were some simulations of the proposed design with reports in serious magazines like racecar engineering. One should think that the guys in the engine working group at the FiA should know what they were talking about. They had Simon formerly of Ferrari and the FiA, Ulrich Baretzky of Audi and a bunch of other cutting edge engine designers in that group.

[WhiteBlue]

Can you make a compound flywheel that will work symbiotically with a compound tubocharger?
One that could spool up the turbo at low rpm's and be driven by the turbo at high rpms. The flywheel in the middle with it's vacume chamber and an internal clutch to either engage at high rpms or dissengage at low. With a stronger drive side compressor.
Of course to me these don't seem to fit any rules which this idea tends to steer away from any standard industry parts.
Would the flywheel pull to much power to be efficient?

IMO a fly wheel solution will always be an alternative to a hybrid turbo. I have seen designs that use a CVT and a flywheel instead of an MGU, but not a combination of the two. IMO it would be simply too heavy.

[Scuderia Nuvolari]

Don't they have the weight of flywheels down to 120 pounds(60 kilos).
The carbon fiber designs seem to be much safer.
IMO the turbo(sweet spot) can only work at certian rpm ranges because of fuel limitations thus allowing a lighter componant(carbon fiber rotor) to either be engaged or dissengaged to the flywheel with a clutch from the inside that would also act as a motor to help the compressor "spool up"

[WhiteBlue]

Don't they have the weight of flywheels down to 120 pounds(60 kilos).

The use of an MGUH is compulsory and IMO provides all the means necessary to avoid turbo lag. It would be very strange if a team would add 60 kg of weight for no real purpose.

[Scuderia Nuvolari]

I just read part of the regulations, it's fun watching your ideas spin around in the toilet bowl.
They should also make a rule that all drivers must be nuetered to race

What if your es goes dead in the pits?
You have to cut the engine before entering pit lane.
Or at least not have ANY fuel flow, no boost makes jack a dull boy

[Scuderia Nuvolari]

I was just thinking back and brushing up on my Senna history - Senna used to kind of blip the throttle constantly to keep the turbo spooled; and to eliminate turbo lag. Would such a thing be possible/needed/beneficial with the 2014 turbos?

I believe that any team that can best find that sweet spot between KW and boost will CATAPULT ANY driver to the championship. It will take at least 2-3 yrs for these powerplants to get close to an even playing field and by that year, they will change the rules again.