Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[xpensive]

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PURE or Cosworth need very deep pockets as only sovereign wealth funds have or they will fall by the way side IMO.

This is why we both agree that PURE has a mighty benefactor behind itself, possibly an Austrian such.

[WhiteBlue]

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PURE or Cosworth need very deep pockets as only sovereign wealth funds have or they will fall by the way side IMO.

This is why we both agree that PURE has a mighty benefactor behind itself, possibly an Austrian such.

When Cosworth last made any noises about the turbo engines the budgets they talked about were €10-20m. By the time the first turbo season is under way the bill will probably run into several hundred millions because there is no homologation. The race is kicked off and will not stop unless they find something under the new Concord to limit it again. Surely the propaganda by Ferrari and Merc that the rules are self restricting the cost is not convincing.

[autogyro]

Max is the guy to sort this out.

Ferrari will continue to demand huge budgets.
Look at this year.
They have more money than anyone else already and already they are going backwards because they have no one to copy from yet with the new rules only just showing the changes.
Ross seems to be sorting Merc though.
Unfortunately it is still all aero.
Downforce has to come down with budgets for F1 to survive.

[elmerfud]

Not sure if you guys have heard about the indy v6 turbo (I have not read all 118 pages of this forum)

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12166

It has many parallels to the new f1 motors.

[RobertPthe3rd]

As was just discussed about blow off valves. I think a need for a wastegate will be minimal as the MGU will store extra turbine energy as electricity. I think that during upshifts there will be no need for a valve because of the speed of upshift. The car is hardly off the throttle for milliseconds. But undser breaking, or end of straight I think a valve will be needed to purge extra pressure.

[WhiteBlue]

There will be a lot of water running down the river Thames until the 2014 season is upon us. At the moment the big issue is how to contain and restrict the cost. If that question is not answered in an acceptable way we are not likely to see the V6 turbos at all. IMO there is a high probability that they get canned. F1 has a propensity to shoot itself in the foot and that could well happen again in the drive train issue. The dumbest solution is to keep the freeze and can the turbos. So for the time being that looks like the most likely solution unless they get their heads out of their collective behinds.

[raymondu999]

On engines alone - would the cars be quicker, or slower, do you think? ie if you had a 2.4L V8 which weighed like the 2014 engines and had the power and torque output curves of the 2014 turbo 6'es what do you think will happen in terms of laptimes?

[pgfpro]

There will be a lot of water running down the river Thames until the 2014 season is upon us. At the moment the big issue is how to contain and restrict the cost. If that question is not answered in an acceptable way we are not likely to see the V6 turbos at all. IMO there is a high probability that they get canned. F1 has a propensity to shoot itself in the foot and that could well happen again in the drive train issue. The dumbest solution is to keep the freeze and can the turbos. So for the time being that looks like the most likely solution unless they get their heads out of their collective behinds.

I hope they carry through with what they started. It would be shame to see F1 become stagnant with currant technology.

[WhiteBlue]

I hope they carry through with what they started. It would be shame to see F1 become stagnant with currant technology.

I agree, but history tells you that teams are totally asinine in terms of seeking individual advantages and denying them to other teams. At the moment the new engines give a distinct advantage to the engine manufacturing teams. They can spend unlimited development money. Unless that loop hole gets fixed pretty soon the majority of non manufacturer teams will gang up with Bernie - who is against the turbos for his own reasons - and vote another delay in the F1 commission. They do have the power to do this. The new engines are intrinsically linked with a budget cap or some other form of cost control. Unless they sort it out until summer I fear we are in for another bad surprise.

[rjsa]

Well WB, a few weeks ago it was set in stone, would certainly run for 2013 and the engine supplies where already deep into the development process. Tow out of these three are not true. It's only the third in need to fail now.

To me they are fading out the concept. And thet will try to make us forget it...

That's rubbish if you allow me this personal opinion. I have never said that the engines are not going to be delayed, although I still think they will not be. This fax vote is just sugar coating to demonstrate that the FiA is listening to all sides.

It started already?

[ringo]

There will be a lot of water running down the river Thames until the 2014 season is upon us. At the moment the big issue is how to contain and restrict the cost. If that question is not answered in an acceptable way we are not likely to see the V6 turbos at all. IMO there is a high probability that they get canned. F1 has a propensity to shoot itself in the foot and that could well happen again in the drive train issue. The dumbest solution is to keep the freeze and can the turbos. So for the time being that looks like the most likely solution unless they get their heads out of their collective behinds.

Well they could could all the energy recover gimmicks at least. Those are the most expensive areas. Stringent restriction on turbo charger geometry is also an option.

The majority or R&D is in the TERS systems and how they integrate with engine and gearbox.

[bhallg2k]

Budget caps are for the missus so she doesn't get all bent out of shape while hubby goes out and spends all of their money anyway.

[WhiteBlue]

Budget caps are for the missus so she doesn't get all bent out of shape while hubby goes out and spends all of their money anyway.

Are we talking engineering and economic issues here or taking the piss?

The majority or R&D is in the TERS systems and how they integrate with engine and gearbox.

How do you get this rather specific knowledge? Can you let us in on the sources or are you having an educated guess here? I would instinctively take an oposing position here. According to my knowledge there is only one fairly simple TERS system, opposed to systems that you are talking about. It is just one MGU sitting on the turbocharger shaft. That is not terribly different from the KERS MGU that the teams know already. What is so complex about such a system?

The most complex item is probably the control software and that is likely to be provided by Microsoft Electronic Systems (McLaren) anyway as part of the SECU package.

I don't believe that designing a brand new F1 racing engine is child's play compared to the relatively straightforward TERS system. The many components of the engine have to be optimized and tested since they run under considerably different load and stress balances than the previous V8 components. For instance rpm and torque ratio is going to be much different. Compression will be different. The injection, combustion, recirculation issues will be completely new and will have to be optimized to minimize fuel use under F1 conditions.

I believe that there will be an awful lot of bench testing on the engine itself which will not be negligible compared to TERS.

[bhallg2k]

Largely transporting urine, but I'd venture to guess that there's virtually no way to implement a budget cap fairly and in such a way that it cannot be grossly abused by creative accounting. Corporations have spent the better part of the last 100 years perfecting such tactics. Moving on...

[WhiteBlue]

F1 moved from no solution of the problem in 2008 to an improvement from 2009-2012. It does not need a perfect solution but something that is better than what we have at the moment, particularly something that will replace the engine freeze with a cost restriction mechanism beyond restrictive specs and allows for carefully managed development on power trains at affordable costs. Even if a budget cap may not be perfect it would be better than doing nothing. Resource restrictions including the power train would also be better than doing nothing. We will not get interesting power train developments unless a new cost race is prohibited. This is why technical solutions will depend of solving the cost problem.