Pirelli 2011 vs Pirelli 2012

[Nando]

Always find it funny to read comments taken out of the blue.

Read his comments again and you´ll see it differs quite a lot from your "rant" on RBR.

[MrBlacky]

Interesting article. Unfortunately in german. But you can use translators.

http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/news ... 51701.html

Translated: http://de.babelfish.yahoo.com/translate ... Cbersetzen

[Nando]

Interesting quotes from Kimi.

However, Raikkonen is not convinced that Pirelli should have been singled out as the key element – because he reckons that the ban on refuelling is a big contributing factor too.

"I don't think the nature [of F1] is different because of that," Raikkonen told Finnish newspaper Turun Sanomat about the impact of Pirelli.

"It's because of the amount of the fuel on board. I don't think there would be that much problem with these tyres, if we would race with 50 or 60 kilos, when we start.

"Previously the pitstops were made usually after every 20 laps, while we had less fuel. I think it would have been the same situation with Michelins and Bridgestones if we would have this much fuel as we have now.

"These tyres are good in qualifying: they have a good grip and all in all they are good tyres."

Refuelling was banned at the start of the 2010 season that witnessed four different winners in the first five races, and produced a four-way championship finale in Abu Dhabi.

Autosport.com

[SiLo]

Kimi hit the nail on the head I think. The cars and track change so much from the beginning of the race to the end, that it is hard to setup the cars to keep the tyres in check.

And if one team figures out the secret to the tyres, everyone will be applauding them for winning lots of races whilst everyone else around them flounders like fools. Surely out of all the genius' walking around in F1, someone would of figured it out by now.

I bet even Pirelli couldn't do it if they had their own car running a race.

[elf341]

Thanks MrBlacky, one quote stood out for me:

"Can I explain how Maldonado gains with his tires eight tenths in sector three? Mind you, not over a single lap, but only in one sector," marvelled Red Bull's motorsport advisor Helmut Marko after the Barcelona weekend.
"And who knows why the car within two hours, suddenly loses all its grip?"

[Paul]

...
I bet even Pirelli couldn't do it if they had their own car running a race.

I'm pretty sure about that. They already have personnel embedded in the teams and I hear they are pretty competitive among themselves. It's up to the team engineers to prove they are good enough and can unlock the tyres.

[myurr]

Thanks MrBlacky, one quote stood out for me:

"Can I explain how Maldonado gains with his tires eight tenths in sector three? Mind you, not over a single lap, but only in one sector," marvelled Red Bull's motorsport advisor Helmut Marko after the Barcelona weekend.
"And who knows why the car within two hours, suddenly loses all its grip?"

Where did Mr Sulkypants Marko get that figure from exactly?

In qualifying if we look at the best sector times from each driver Maldonado was fastest of all in sector 3, but only had a 0.019s advantage over Hamilton and a 0.256s advantage over Vettel.

In sector 2 Hamilton was the quickest driver with Maldonado 4th quickest with a 0.264 advantage over Vettel.

In sector 1 Vettel was only 16th quickest, with a 0.309s deficit to Maldonado.

So over a single lap Maldonado had 0.829 seconds advantage. Maybe Marko is a little bit confused and that is the 0.8s that he is talking about. In qualifying surely the differences in tyre management would be minimised.

Or is Marko saying that Red Bull can't even switch the tyres on for a single lap? This is something that Hamilton has demonstrated he can do at every single race so far having qualified on the front row in terms of pace at every race so far, so it can be done.

[elf341]

I got the impression he was talking about the race. I haven't checked, but maybe it was sector 3 where the RB8 was really trailing the FW34?

[myurr]

I got the impression he was talking about the race. I haven't checked, but maybe it was sector 3 where the RB8 was really trailing the FW34?

Well Vettel's fastest lap was quicker than Maldonado's, so I doubt it'd be on that lap. Perhaps if someone trawled through the sector times for every single lap then they'd be able to find the one lap where Marko was correct.

[elf341]

Yeah, maybe. Anyway I kind of see your sentiment on Marko that he's a bit of a joke - I just found it more interesting that we've now have three senior Red Bull guys come out expressing either concern, or confusion.

Newey did seem rather agnostic when questioned about the tyres in the pre-barc press conference, however, but as is often quoted on this board there's often no smoke without fire. Whilst they may be leading the championships on points, it can't have escaped them that they had real trouble with Webber behind Hulkenberg, and certainly a lot of other teams have experienced a lot of bad luck (e.g. McLaren, Merc, Sauber). "You make your own luck", I know, but if that bad luck stops I think RB has reason to be quite concerned.

[Nando]

It´s most definitely Helmut who did not pay enough attention when someone told him this.

[myurr]

Yeah, maybe. Anyway I kind of see your sentiment on Marko that he's a bit of a joke - I just found it more interesting that we've now have three senior Red Bull guys come out expressing either concern, or confusion.

Newey did seem rather agnostic when questioned about the tyres in the pre-barc press conference, however, but as is often quoted on this board there's often no smoke without fire. Whilst they may be leading the championships on points, it can't have escaped them that they had real trouble with Webber behind Hulkenberg, and certainly a lot of other teams have experienced a lot of bad luck (e.g. McLaren, Merc, Sauber). "You make your own luck", I know, but if that bad luck stops I think RB has reason to be quite concerned.

Yeah I consider Marko to be a bit of a joke - freely admit to being biased against him.

I think the fact that Red Bull management are speaking out against the tyres is more evidence of them presenting excuses for this years poor performance. I know they're leading both championship (!!) but their car is a shadow of it's former self and if McLaren stopped shooting themselves in both feet at the same time then it's likely they would have a sizeable lead in both championships by now.

They're not quick in a straight line, they're not quick in qualifying (where the tyres have the least effect), they still can't get Webber's car off the line, and whilst they have been better in the races they don't seem to be anything special.

The only thing that's been getting them good points so far is in fact their race pace where they've had lower than average tyre wear. If anything I think the tyres have been a good leveller for them in the races, as if it were just down to their qualifying pace they'd be languishing further down the championship leaderboards.

[ESPImperium]

Personally i think Pirelli have done a masterstroke this year. Lottery in tyres and lets face it, its good for the sport. 5 wiiners in 5 from 5 differend constructors, as well as 5 different fastest laps. Races are good as well, strategy has really opened up. And this year with the top teams at some tracks, downforce isnt the be all and end all, sometimes it overheats the tyre and or it just makes the tyre degrade faster as more compound gets flung off it and onto the side of the track. Engineers rise to the challange and drivers hate it as they cant drive at full bore for all the race, they have to back off to make a pass propperly work.

However there is one thing that really worries me, and that is the lack of a Q3 rule change. Ive said it many times before, and ill say it again. Q3 needs to be about a single lap run with each car having one set of options set aside untill Q3 from their 11 sets. Also Q3 needs to be a frantic five minuite session where timing and getting it right for that single lap needs to be what Q3 is about.

Some want quali tires, some want the 2 compound rule done away with, personally id just tune the rules a little more.

Q1 teams shouldnt have to worry about a daft 2 compound rule, if they want to run their cars for three 20 lap stints and run a 2 stopper on the primes, they can. Chances are they will use 2 or 3 sets of options just to make the 107% rule.

Q2 cars should have free choice about their tyres, however they have to use both compounds as chances are they will have at least 3 sets of their allocation as fresh for the race.

Q3 cars need to use the options and start the race on those tyres as well, chances are they will have two fresh sets of primes for the race if they need them.

However id like to see the timings for Quali changed, with minimum lap counts as well so the fans get a propper show.

Q1 - 30 minuites - 9 laps to have fast lap activated (In/Out laps included in lap count)
10 minuite break
Q2 - 20 muinites - 6 laps to have fast lap activated (In/Out laps included in lap count
10 minuites break
Q3 - 5 minuites - 3 laps to have fast lap activated (In/Out laps included in lap count

Each car must be back to the pits within 300% of their fast lap and have 1L of fuel in case of sample as well. This gives TV land in effect 6 minuitres between each session and also gives a 75 minuite show with lots of fast paced action.

Pirelli and the FIA need to think about Quali and how it can have a more active part in the overall plan of the weekend. This format is just tuning it to the Pirellis as the current rule set is still tuned for the Bridgestones i think.

Quali is something that should be watched as it is part of the strategy of the race.

[bhallg2k]

Each car must be back to the pits within 300% of their fast lap and have 1L of fuel in case of sample as well.

I think 300% is a bit too slow. I can think of a myriad problematic scenarios that could result from a car coasting around as much as 3x slower than cars on hot laps. The current rule is 145%, and I think that's proven to be effective, simply because the issue never even comes up.

I've been pretty outspoken with my disdain for the Pirellotteri aspect to grands prix these days, but it seems I'm in the minority, as most people appear to be happy with the action no matter how absurd or artificial it is. However, I think there's a budding consensus growing around the notion that qualifying needs to be adjusted.

To that end, I'd like to see a single-spec qualifying tire. It would remain identical for all circuits throughout the entire season. Each driver would get two sets per race of this likely very-hard compound* tire: one set for practice and one set for qualifying. I think it would partially mitigate the seemingly random outcomes of the Pirellotteris by giving teams a stationary target whereby the fastest cars/drivers, and not necessarily those that make the best use of tires, would tend to start at the front. If tire consumption is to be the end-all, be-all on race day as is the case now, I think there needs to be some way of identifying and rewarding teams/drivers who are simply fast.


* I know this is a direct contradiction to the traditional idea of qualifying tires. I just think harder tires would prove cheaper and more stable over the course of a season.

[Nando]

I like to have it as it is today but with more Qualifying tires. Qualifying should be a battle in itself but now we mostly see teams choosing not to go out because they have to save tires.

I would also like to see a Q4.

Top 3 guys get´s one timed lap alone on track. Who´s first and last out to do their lap is decided by Q3.