Alguersuari and Buemi were better than their replacements?

[Tomba]

What in the Blazes are Vergne and Ricciardo doing?!! These are supposed to be the "born winners" that Helmut was talking about?!

Where are the top class Rookie Performances? I don't see anything special about these two losers.

The car is quite good, its a top ten car I assure you; so why can't Ricciardo (poor at qualifying and racing) and Vergne (just snail piss slow) seem to put a complete race together? Their racing efforts are collectively lackluster - not even one of them is standing out... It's just embarrasing especially as I calculated that the car is really the fourth fastest.

SACK THEM!!

[Red Schneider]

This is the way I envision Toro Rosso: it's about finding greatness. There is no meaningful difference between somewhat good and slightly less good drivers. Race-winning potential or bust. If you don't look like you will meet that admittedly high threshold, might as well try some other guy.

This is a farm team. Remember that.

[Cam]

Stop. Think. Maybe Torro Rosso is not there to win a championship, so the driver results don't really matter. If I had 2 teams, I would use one purely for research to feed my top team. I'm not saying this is what they're doing, however for all we know, that's exactly they're doing. Staying down the back, out of the way, gathering data and testing new parts, setups etc would be genius, however from the outside, you run the risk of looking not so good as a driver - yet you're running exactly to plan. To call them losers is very harsh, especially when you don't have all the facts at hand. Every time Ricciardo is interviewed, he's smiling from ear to ear - does that look like someone scared he's not doing what's expected? Reference: see Massa

[Websta]

How do you calculate that the STR is the fourth fastest car? And the team has praised Ricciardo's early performances this season - http://www.redbull.com/cs/Satellite/en_INT/Article/giorgio-ascanelli-toro-rosso-interview-021243207280566. Of course, whether that praise is genuine is a little debatable.

I haven't been overwhelmed by any of the four STR drivers in F1 either, but they were among the most promising up-and-comers in the minor leagues and I disagree that they are making a mess of a good car at the moment. RBR still may have to look else where to replace Webber when he retires. I just wish Kobayashi would get a few stronger results together to get the attention of the top teams, and maybe refine his somewhat inconsistent qualifying performances, because I think he has displayed the qualities that RBR is looking for from their STR drivers.

[bhallg2k]

Farm teams develop players. Toro Rosso sifts through drivers.

Red Bull unequivocally used STR from 2007 to 2009. In fact, I contend that much of Red Bull's success under the new formula is indebted to having double the data of everyone else in 2009. That gave STR value.

However, STR is not the place to go if you're a young driver with an eye toward advancing in F1. With the exception of Vettel, they've treated their drivers horribly. Liuzzi, Speed, Bourdais, Alguesuari, Buemi were all given a black eye as a result of their time at STR. Tost treats them like meat.

If Vergne and Ricciardo are lucky, maybe they'll get dropped with enough time to make plans for next year. That would be a considerable improvement over the way Alguesuari and Buemi were handled.

[pob]

Well they both beat a former WDC today who is in a much better car than them, so they are definitely both future champions

Vergne has performed respactably in the races considering it's his rookie season. It's only qualifying he struggles with.

Ricciardo hasn't done as well as I expected, but he has had a couple of moments of brilliance: Bahrain qualifying and Australia.

[GrizzleBoy]

The car is crap.

Imo.

[raymondu999]

I don't think the 2012 car is, relative to the field, any worse than the 2011 car was.

However there is a really tight-knit close group of 6 different cars which are consistent points scorers, all podium contenders and occasional racewinners (if the gods are smiling on them). As such given that there are 12 cars that are as such now, as opposed to the 6 of last year - it's harder for a minnow to sneak in a good result.

[beelsebob]

I don't think the 2012 car is, relative to the field, any worse than the 2011 car was.

However there is a really tight-knit close group of 6 different cars which are consistent points scorers, all podium contenders and occasional racewinners (if the gods are smiling on them). As such given that there are 12 cars that are as such now, as opposed to the 6 of last year - it's harder for a minnow to sneak in a good result.

I think the thing that's making them look especially bad this year is simply that Williams have got their act together, and Caterham too to a certain extent... Everyone has moved forward this year except for Red Bull and Torro Rosso.

[Sombrero]

Both Ricciardo and Vergne lack of experience in F-1. Alguersari and Buemi were quite good with allready a very bad car.
To replace both of them at the same time was a big mistake. Fire Helmut Marko !

[ESPImperium]

Personally the car has alot to do with it. It is hard to handle with a nature of understeer entry and the mid corner and snap oversteer on exit. Riccardo is good, just not setting the world alight just yet, Vergne is slightly better however the lack of experience is showing with him now.

My summary of Riccardo has the expeience with the RB5, RB6, STR6, F111 and now this car, he knows what a good car and a bad car feel like and i feel he is able adapt better to a poor car. On the other side Vergne seems that he is always complaining about the car, he cant get comfy with it as quick, his experience with the STR5, STR6 and RB7 give him a slightly less of a data bank over Riccardo who has raced for half a season in a poor HRT F111, whitch gives him an advantage. Riccardo seems to qualify better but falls away in races, Vergne seems to be poor at Quali but picks up in races.

Daniel Ricciardo = 1.516% off P1 in Quali - Average Finishing posistion: 13.86
Jean-Eric Vergne = 2.596% off P1 in Quali - Average Finishing posistion: 12.57

If i take a look at Jaime Alguersuari and Sebastian Buemi, id have kept one of them for half a season this year, id probably have taken Alguersuari, however he seems to be very simmilar to Vergne going from what i heard of him from the pit to car radio last year. However Alguersuari seems to have more of a Riccardo about him, he seems to be able to adapt to a problem better than a Vergne.

Buemi i would have taken as the Red Bull TD/RD and the guy for the simulator for Red Bull, and get him the LMP experience as well, as an experience of a LMP car will make him a better driver. He basically needs a Grosjean shok to go onto better things.

Last years stats:

Sebastian Buemi 3.925% off P1 in Quali - Average Finishing posistion: 14.105
Jaime Alguersuari 3.458% off P1 in Quali - Average Finishing posistion: 13.526

Narain Karthikeyan 8.443% off P1 in Quali - Average Finishing posistion: 20.778
Daniel Ricciardo 8.900% off P1 in Quali - Average Finishing posistion: 19.273
Vitantonio Liuzzi 8.615% off P1 in Quali - Average Finishing posistion: 20.444

2010 years stats:

Sebastian Buemi 2.531% off P1 in Quali - Average Finishing posistion: 14.526
Jaime Alguersuari 2.570% off P1 in Quali - Average Finishing posistion: 12.895

I feel that Red Bull should have continued a partnership with HRT and given Vergne 10 events with this years F112 in order to get him experience with a poor car and also get him into what a learning in F1 away from the spotlight, kept Alguersuari and then put Riccardo in the #2 seat. Then told Alguersuari and Riccardo that they have 10 events to impress before Vergne steps in and the other driver goes to HRT for the rest of the year. It seems that fear always drives a driver forward and fear always makes them drive results out of the car that would otherwise not be posible.

Im not entirly convinced by both Riccardo or Vergne at present, i think that Red Bull/Toro Rosso made a mistake in getting rid of Alguersuari, as they lost a baseline from one car to another, whitch it seems that all other teams retained from 2011 to 2012. And this is what i feel has hurt them, the loss of one driver to be able to compair to the last car and drive it forward.

I do think that Alguersuari will be back in F1 next year at one of two teams as his experience of the Pirelli R30 test car and the Pirelli 2013 rubber will make his an asset. But that depends on what 2 or 3 top teams do with their drivers. It would be wrong for Toro Rosso to boot Riccardo and Vergne next year, i think they need one more year, in order for Red Bull to decide who will replace Webber, unless Webber goes to Ferrari next year, whitch Riccardo or Vergne will need to be able to step up quickly, and Toro Rosso need to then decide on wether to put Buemi back in a STR seat or bring back Alguersuari or replace them with another hot shoe.

[Tomba]

I do believe as well that sacking Alguersuari was a mistake. He did not have too much experience yet, and his debut a while ago was impressive nonetheless.

I wonder though what you expect from a driver in the midfield? Do you think Kovalainen is a bad driver because he can't get into the points? And with Di Resta - Hulk being so highly regarded, have you been impressed by them at all this year? And Button, a world champion, is he incapable because of a few bad races? I don't think so...

[raymondu999]

I don't believe any human is capable of consistently outshining his machinery race in, race out. Flashes of brilliance, yes - but otherwise, not really. I think if the driver can show at least flashes of brilliance, then that should be a big sign.

[beelsebob]

I do believe as well that sacking Alguersuari was a mistake. He did not have too much experience yet, and his debut a while ago was impressive nonetheless.

I wonder though what you expect from a driver in the midfield? Do you think Kovalainen is a bad driver because he can't get into the points? And with Di Resta - Hulk being so highly regarded, have you been impressed by them at all this year? And Button, a world champion, is he incapable because of a few bad races? I don't think so...

To me, what I want to see from those drivers is some maturity, not chucking it off the track, consistently getting the car to where it can get to. DiResta impresses me because he typically comes home as high as the car can manage, often higher than I thought it could. Similarly Perez has a knack for getting the car into positions you wouldn't think it should be able to get to.

[raymondu999]

To me, what I want to see from those drivers is some maturity, not chucking it off the track, consistently getting the car to where it can get to.

That's an interesting point. If you had to choose, which of these two drivers would you rather have, if you were looking in a midfield driver:
a) a driver that shows incredible maturity, and is a "par" driver - he'll get points in a points-scoring car and podiums in a podium-capable car.
b) a driver that shows incredible levels of talent, but is prone to occasionally binning the car spectacularly. eg Grosjean/Maldonado - winning one race and crashing the next, or crashing one race and pulling off a brilliant drive the next.