Mclaren and Mercedes partnership

[autogyro]

Sorry I do not see it that way, I see McLaren on the way down, not on the way up.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

ESPI Emporium

The amount of money you are talking about is phenomenal. Sure it looks great on paper, but where will the cash come from?

Mercedes are not pumping in £80 million a year no questions asked anymore, nor will they be "giving" McLren their engine.

In fact I think what has happened has shocked Ron Dennis slightly, he called Mercedes bluff by making the MP4-12C. Somthing Mercedes has known about since 2007.
The opportunity presented itself to Mercedes in the shape of Brawn, and in time, the outfit could be McLarens equal on the track. All for sizeably less investment, More exposure and 100% credit when they win. Auto motor und Sport ran a story that should deutsche post pump in the reported 20 million a year Mercedes will actually be making money this year!

McLaren are as before but -£80 million and in time have to pay £10million for engines per annum.

Im with autogyro on this, the only way is down.

[WhiteBlue]

Realistically there is no way that McLaren can remain independent. Even Ferrari cannot afford to do so. The reason is the European punitive tax on automotive corporations who exceed fleet CO2 emission levels. It would add substantially to the cost if Ferrari cannot offset the super sport cars by small Fiat cars.

The taxation is the reason Porsche acquired VW only to have the take over inverted when the credit crunch hit. Next example is Mercedes who had a problem and have now formed corporate ties with Renault to avoid punitive taxation.

BMW has introduced the 1 series and the Mini for starters and will do the electric Megacity car to get clear.

Any company competing with Merc, Ferrari and Porsche which cannot offset the high performance cars with a bunch of city cruisers is seriously disadvantaged by inferior margins. So McLaren needs their share holder Mumtalakat to acquire them another automotive partner with a product like a city or electric car to get rid of the tax.

I think this is even more important then having an F1 engine which can be commissioned by any independent engine supplier (Ilmore, Hart, Judd, Cosworth, Ricardo, Mecachrome). The only requirement there is that it is state of the art in terms of power, fuel efficiency and recovery system.

[xpensive]

Sorry I do not see it that way, I see McLaren on the way down, not on the way up.

Yayaya, I said that myself in 1995 when they got in bed with Peugeot and Nigel Mansell, but it's funny how times channge, isn't it?

[lebesset]

mercedes wanted to buy McLaren for some years , but RD and the other shareholders refused , hence the decision to purchase brawn

so what is the scale of this european punitive tax on automotive corporations who exceed fleet emissions .....a link to the information would be interesting

and ferrari has been a fiat subsidiary for more than 40 years , nothing to do with punitive taxes

[xpensive]

mercedes wanted to buy McLaren for some years , but RD and the other shareholders refused , hence the decision to purchase brawn

so what is the scale of this european punitive tax on automotive corporations who exceed fleet emissions .....a link to the information would be interesting

and ferrari has been a fiat subsidiary for more than 40 years , nothing to do with punitive taxes

I agree, never heard about such punitive taxes for sportscars, what would that do to Koenigsegg for example?

[feynman]

"independent manufacturers who sell fewer than 10,000 vehicles per year and who cannot or do not wish to join a pool can instead apply to the Commission for an individual target."

src: http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=MEMO/07/597&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en

Now what that individual target might be, who knows?

You know that big-business loves big-government, and big-government loves big-business, and I'm guessing the commision to be top heavy with authoritarian eco-mentalists, so you probably wouldn't expect the "individual target" for smaller independents to be all that forgiving, or to be all that sensible.

The standard legislation looks to start hammering manufacturers over 130g/km. The 12C is probably just under 200g/km. Depends where the magic number lands.

140 : You need to find a silly three-wheeled electric eco-pod manufacturer to pool with.
180 : Close enough to 200, the fines start at 20€/g (2012 rates, then rising to end at 95€), just stick a coupla grand on the ticket price. Everyone else is gonna have to anyway. Where's all that money actually going?.

Or if you just want to play by standard EU rules, get Mumtalakat to pay-off the necessary lobbiers, a coupla brown-envelopes left behind the correct Brussels toilet cistern, and the number will magically come back as 195. No need to worry.

[hairy]

I just need to clarify some of the positions here.

Engine in MP4-12C

Based on an old Menard design, changed in house, sent to ricardo to fettle, now fetching over 720bhp in P12 (which will also have KERS). Current emissions around 280, lower than 200 for P12

SLR
Merc was the driver behind this, and it was universally loathed, but as Merc had 40% shareholding, it went through.

Mercedes then wanted to buy Mclaren, to become its Lambo, it's Bugatti. RD and his middle East partners said no, we want to design cars of our own. Merc said, and this is pretty mucha quote, agree with us or we will go into competition. RD et al said no, and the SLS was born, in competition with P11. Now they are, merc, looking at building a car to rival the upcoming P13 too. Merc still currently own 15% and it's all in an agreed deal to buy back the rest.

F1 Engines.
So, no one else has seen the influx of ex BMW and Toyota engineers? Don't dismiss it out of hand, as Mclaren are very well kitted out to become a formidable Manufacturer and part of the business expansion plans, is doing their own engines. Now what would be the greatest advertisement for a Mclaren designed and built engine? Now factor in that the orginal Menard engine (which was bullet proof and effectively a Nissan funded engine), was a 2.4 V8.

[xxChrisxx]

I just need to clarify some of the positions here.

Engine in MP4-12C

Based on an old Menard design, changed in house, sent to ricardo to fettle, now fetching over 720bhp in P12 (which will also have KERS). Current emissions around 280, lower than 200 for P12

I'm not 100% sure, but I thought it was a fairly clean sheet design.
It's built by Ricardo too.

[avatar]

From my own experience I would say that anyone who set up an engine manufacturing company just to make F1 engines would need their head examined.

Craig...
...Craig Pollock?
Is that you?