2014 intercooling

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
mrluke
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Joined: 22 Nov 2013, 20:31

Re: 2014 intercooling

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That mclaren picture may be misleading, I was under the impression that the teams have to come up with their own cooling solution, the mercedes engine is likely tailored to suit the mercedes car. Mclaren probably received the engine and tried to find a way to route from the inlets to the cooler, hence the octopus pipe.

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ringo
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Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: 2014 intercooling

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Force India.
Image

mercedes has something similar, but they had the advantage of molding it into their tub i suppose.

I'm more veering to the intercoolers being air to air. only that they are thinner but much longer than what is used by renault.
For Sure!!

Foyle
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Joined: 10 Apr 2014, 06:18

Re: 2014 intercooling

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At some point one of the teams will realise that they can do cooling in the surfaces of all the body work to reduce their side pod size and aerodrag even further (and increase downforce slightly in some cases if they add heat to partially stagnated air), Perhaps in the floor tray and rear wing would be most attractive as can get rid of heat through both sides.

Lycoming
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Joined: 25 Aug 2011, 22:58

Re: 2014 intercooling

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Foyle wrote:At some point one of the teams will realise that they can do cooling in the surfaces of all the body work to reduce their side pod size and aerodrag even further (and increase downforce slightly in some cases if they add heat to partially stagnated air), Perhaps in the floor tray and rear wing would be most attractive as can get rid of heat through both sides.
Brabham tried this at one point several decades ago. It was not a long lived idea.

Foyle
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Joined: 10 Apr 2014, 06:18

Re: 2014 intercooling

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Lycoming wrote:
Foyle wrote:At some point one of the teams will realise that they can do cooling in the surfaces of all the body work to reduce their side pod size and aerodrag even further (and increase downforce slightly in some cases if they add heat to partially stagnated air), Perhaps in the floor tray and rear wing would be most attractive as can get rid of heat through both sides.
Brabham tried this at one point several decades ago. It was not a long lived idea.
But I would bet that engine oil+coolant temps have increased greatly since then - possibly 120-130°C now, reducing the necessary areas, also budgets have increased by perhaps an order of magnitude or more, and they are looking for tiny gains to give them the edge over the competition, where in the 70's everything was still pretty crude and design mostly done on gut instinct with a lot of other low-hanging fruit available (development wise) that just doesn't exist anymore. Nowadays relatively little things like blown or double diffusers can make all the difference.

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SiLo
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Joined: 25 Jul 2010, 19:09

Re: 2014 intercooling

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It's something I have always wondered about, using all available surfaces for cooling is possible, the ono problem being whether carbon fibre is the best material to use. Which it probably isn't.

If something went wrong with water ducting all over the car you might not have a clue where the issue is, and any small contact during the race could ruin all your cooling. I can understand why it wasn't long lived!
Felipe Baby!

olefud
79
Joined: 13 Mar 2011, 00:10
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA

Re: 2014 intercooling

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Foyle wrote:At some point one of the teams will realise that they can do cooling in the surfaces of all the body work to reduce their side pod size and aerodrag even further (and increase downforce slightly in some cases if they add heat to partially stagnated air), Perhaps in the floor tray and rear wing would be most attractive as can get rid of heat through both sides.
This would work better with radiant cooling, i.e. hot black surfaces. Surface convection has boundary layer problems that limit heat transfer and may affect aero flow for better or for worse.

diego.liv
20
Joined: 19 Feb 2013, 17:37

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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I don't recall someone pointing out this info

Omnicorse.it discovered Merc's turbo's water-air heat exchanger has been built within the chassis
http://www.omnicorse.it/magazine/36983/ ... nel-telaio

Paddy Lowe in persone, congratulated the good eye of Giorgio Piola for his discovery
http://www.omnicorse.it/magazine/37041/ ... sono-altri

"You've succeded in finding out one of the innovative aspects of the project, but dear Giorgio i'd like to show you the car naked at the end of the season so you could appreciate the other solutions that are worth to be seen. The engineers have developed several interesting ideas..."

Interesting is also the previous part of the article, where it is reported that Merc were ready to go with a more conservative car design solution during last summer, but opted for this design considering this and other elements (bigger turbo and compressor, compared to Renault and ferrari)

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Kiril Varbanov
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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Matt Somers
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Joined: 19 Mar 2009, 11:33

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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Strange that Giorgio clearly knows it's a charge cooler (air-liquid-air) http://translate.google.com/translate?s ... edit-text=

But then talks about it as an Intercooler in the F1.com piece...

Anyways I discussed all of this over a week ago when I did my piece comparing the powerunits and taking a swipe at Sky http://somersf1.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/ ... nding.html
Catch me on Twitter https://twitter.com/SomersF1 or the blog http://www.SomersF1.co.uk
I tweet tech images for Sutton Images

Owen.C93
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Joined: 24 Jul 2010, 17:52

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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Posted back in mid March, it's what I think the layout looks like.
Owen.C93 wrote:Ok so this is what I think Mercedes are doing. We heard from scarbs that they are running an air to water intercooler which matches what we've seen in the sidepods (standard rads). This means that they run extra large radiators but only need 2 with much less plumbing. If you look at these 2 pictures you can see that A the compressor exits towards the right (in gold) whilst the oil tank is packaged to the left and B they run a fuel tank that is asymetrical with more space in the left hand sidepod (to the right of the images we've seen so far).
http://www.omnicorse.it/img/articoli/ev ... rcedes.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/IKsQUP5.png
This space is where I believe the intercooler is placed, I have drawn some arrows on this pic to show where the hot air from the compressor comes out (matches well with the engine pic) and then we can see where it goes into the engine air box.
Image
To give a sense of scale this is the Ferrari intercooler setup, seems round about the right size.

Let me know what you think.
Motorsport Graduate in search of team experience ;)

Just_a_fan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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Strange that Giorgio clearly knows it's a charge cooler (air-liquid-air) [...]

But then talks about it as an Intercooler in the F1.com piece...
Well technically they're both charge coolers - they both work to reduce the temperature of the air going in to the engine.

You could inject a suitable fluid (alcohol, water) in to the charge before it enters the engine and that would also be charge cooling.

And the intercooler isn't really an intercooler, it's an aftercooler because it's placed after the supercharging stages. If the engine had two supercharging stages with a cooler between the stages then that would be an intercooler.

The problem is that the terms have been messed around with over the years - usually by the media - and actually aren't used in their correct ways. Charge cooling was developed in the aero industry in the 20s-40s as a way of extracting performance from the piston engines of the time.

This is not restricted to F1, of course - for example, just look at the use of the word "theory" where the word "hypothesis" should be used.

(Sorry mods, a bit OT :oops: )
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

mrluke
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Joined: 22 Nov 2013, 20:31

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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The only downside being that they haven't actually spotted it...

Somers article is well written and a good read.

Matt Somers
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Joined: 19 Mar 2009, 11:33

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Strange that Giorgio clearly knows it's a charge cooler (air-liquid-air) [...]

But then talks about it as an Intercooler in the F1.com piece...
Well technically they're both charge coolers - they both work to reduce the temperature of the air going in to the engine.

You could inject a suitable fluid (alcohol, water) in to the charge before it enters the engine and that would also be charge cooling.

And the intercooler isn't really an intercooler, it's an aftercooler because it's placed after the supercharging stages. If the engine had two supercharging stages with a cooler between the stages then that would be an intercooler.

The problem is that the terms have been messed around with over the years - usually by the media - and actually aren't used in their correct ways. Charge cooling was developed in the aero industry in the 20s-40s as a way of extracting performance from the piston engines of the time.

This is not restricted to F1, of course - for example, just look at the use of the word "theory" where the word "hypothesis" should be used.

(Sorry mods, a bit OT :oops: )
Yea I try to avoid the use of intercooler for the exact reason that it should be an aftercooler even though most still prefix it as inter. That's exactly why I've tried to use air to air cooler and air-liquid-air cooler as the description.
Catch me on Twitter https://twitter.com/SomersF1 or the blog http://www.SomersF1.co.uk
I tweet tech images for Sutton Images

Just_a_fan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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Matt, I thought yours was a well written article and certainly more informative than many of the "expert analyses" we've seen in the media.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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