Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[hemichromis]

According to a very respectful member and source on Honda forums @RolendaNSX,the new PU have been mated whit the chassis last week,and the latest news seem to be that 2016 spec PU will not hit track until 2nd Barcelona test.

http://vtec.net/forums/one-message?mess ... e_number=3&

EDIT; an older qoute from him;

There problem was never size zero. There problem was always the MGU-H and trying to turn the turbine/compressor at the max rpm allowed(it overheated and hurt combustion in the ICE).So expect a much larger turbine and about 20% larger compressor(will still be between the V)

The older quote was posted more than 2 weeks after Wazari said something similar on this forum.

Maybe I'll go to another forum and repost Wazari's titbits also!!!!

[GoranF1]

According to a very respectful member and source on Honda forums @RolendaNSX,the new PU have been mated whit the chassis last week,and the latest news seem to be that 2016 spec PU will not hit track until 2nd Barcelona test.

http://vtec.net/forums/one-message?mess ... e_number=3&

EDIT; an older qoute from him;

There problem was never size zero. There problem was always the MGU-H and trying to turn the turbine/compressor at the max rpm allowed(it overheated and hurt combustion in the ICE).So expect a much larger turbine and about 20% larger compressor(will still be between the V)

The older quote was posted more than 2 weeks after Wazari said something similar on this forum.

Maybe I'll go to another forum and repost Wazari's titbits also!!!!

It seem suspitius to mee too...i hope its false.....

[namao]

Well, I just saw McLaren Honda trucks in Montmeló Circuit. Early this guys...

[Wazari]

I have not heard anything about when the new PU will or will not be ready for testing. If they are not planning to run the new PU until the second session, then that is news to me.

I have not heard anything from my nephew in over a week. It was my understanding that they are not behind schedule, expecting 4 to 6% increase in output from ICE alone over latest 2015 spec ICE mostly from redesigned combustion chamber design to match revised fuel from Mobil. I hope they launch the new PU in the first session but I don't know. I don't know what the current schedule is...

[dren]

"Let me put this concept of the domino effect into a technical example: if you try to harvest energy using the MGU-H, it puts a strenuous workload on the turbo. When the turbo is under stress, it cannot do what it is supposed to do, which is to force more air into the engine, thus leading to decreased power output. This is the result of one component working against the others, instead of working together."

That's probably why Honda said they had a great ICE but everything else was lackluster. It sounds like it wasn't designed as a PU, it was designed as a turbo ICE with a recovery system slapped on it.

Honda since said they were playing with new combustion ideas, and that was from early in the season. Makes sense.

[ollandos]

i think it is logical step for honda to try first the 2015 PU with new parts turbo/compressor...and after the new ICE with this and new wastegate..and all other updates...

[dren]

I have not heard anything from my nephew in over a week. It was my understanding that they are not behind schedule, expecting 4 to 6% increase in output from ICE alone over latest 2015 spec ICE. I hope they launch the new PU in the first session but I don't know. I don't know what the current schedule is...

That's a pretty nice increase in the ICE alone, probably around 25~30hp. That sounds more reasonable than the 70hp numbers floating around the rumor-net.

[j.yank]

just as we thought , we have heard enough :
http://gptoday.com/full_story/view/5523 ... liability/

What means to prepare more than 4 engines in January when they still have not even hit the track with a single engine that should be homologized in March? Seems like another media attempt to generate traffic.

[hemichromis]

I have not heard anything about when the new PU will or will not be ready for testing. If they are not planning to run the new PU until the second session, then that is news to me.

I have not heard anything from my nephew in over a week. It was my understanding that they are not behind schedule, expecting 4 to 6% increase in output from ICE alone over latest 2015 spec ICE mostly from redesigned combustion chamber design to match revised fuel from Mobil. I hope they launch the new PU in the first session but I don't know. I don't know what the current schedule is...

It always confused me when ICE power is stated, is it inclusive of the turbo charger?

6% would put them close to the 2015 Mercedes so good work.

[hemichromis]

just as we thought , we have heard enough :
http://gptoday.com/full_story/view/5523 ... liability/

What means to prepare more than 4 engines in January when they still have not even hit the track with a single engine that should be homologized in March? Seems like another media attempt to generate traffic.

True, they managed to build 24 last year so i doubt they need to rush to build more just yet!

[hurril]

I have not heard anything about when the new PU will or will not be ready for testing. If they are not planning to run the new PU until the second session, then that is news to me.

I have not heard anything from my nephew in over a week. It was my understanding that they are not behind schedule, expecting 4 to 6% increase in output from ICE alone over latest 2015 spec ICE mostly from redesigned combustion chamber design to match revised fuel from Mobil. I hope they launch the new PU in the first session but I don't know. I don't know what the current schedule is...

It always confused me when ICE power is stated, is it inclusive of the turbo charger?

6% would put them close to the 2015 Mercedes so good work.

How could it ever be without the turbo charger?

[PlatinumZealot]

We can argue until we're blue in the face about who knows what. Look at what actually works, and then tell me why it's wrong?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxVqWfQZeOQ

Listen to the engine when it's halfway down the straight, does it not sound like it's turbo is stalling?

Radial compressor is almost impossible to stall under a normal working. In the case where even if you slam the throttle shut - and even if there is no blow off, the system is designed for these events by use of the MGUH. Also the pressure ratio is so small when compared to axial compressors.. it's only a few bar haha. I don't think the compressor is stalling at all - even if it were stalling it is only one stage with passages only a few centimeters in length - nothing detrimental will happen like in a multistage axial compressor with rows of blades....

I'm not saying it's a catastrophic stall(the engine wasn't sputtering or backfiring), I'm saying partial stalling, as in the compressor is unable to deliver enough boost pressure to the cylinders(because it's a small turbo that requires high rotational speed to achieve the desired pressure). This would only happen on full throttle, down a long straight, when the MGU-H does most of it's harvesting(reducing turbine, and compressor rpm, unless there's some other way the MGU-H harvests that I'm not aware of), and made worse by the fact Honda was running out of battery power half way through the lap. If you notice in the low speed stuff, the engine actually has good response and drivability, the problem comes on the long straights, right when MGU-H should be in generator mode.

OK. This is called compressor surge. Stall is the opposite. Surge is when the compressor hit its peak mass flow and it cannot push out any more flow. This is at the far right of the graph and the pressure is very low. The momentum forces of the gas take over. I am not sure if this happens much if at all in F1... because at full throttle your map is still set to deliver power so there would be still a moderate level of boost. I think what you are hearing is just compressor noises as the compressor speed swings up and down.

[ringo]

"Let me put this concept of the domino effect into a technical example: if you try to harvest energy using the MGU-H, it puts a strenuous workload on the turbo. When the turbo is under stress, it cannot do what it is supposed to do, which is to force more air into the engine, thus leading to decreased power output. This is the result of one component working against the others, instead of working together."

That's probably why Honda said they had a great ICE but everything else was lackluster. It sounds like it wasn't designed as a PU, it was designed as a turbo ICE with a recovery system slapped on it.

Honda since said they were playing with new combustion ideas, and that was from early in the season. Makes sense.

This is why i've stressed the importance of the wastegate. It's not a load a like the MGUH. What is happeing is that the MGUH is loading the turbo when it's used as some kind of control at the lower rpms. Ideally you would want the MGUH to harvest during overboost which would occur at the higher engine speeds above 10,500 rpm or possibly during traction limited accelerations.
If there is a perfect match with the turbo and power draw from the MGUH, harvesting can take place continuously provided the loading/power draw isn't excessive to starve the engine of boost.

[hemichromis]

Well, I just saw McLaren Honda trucks in Montmeló Circuit. Early this guys...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZ0bMAZWwAQuOHe.jpg:large

A month early??

[-wkst-]

That's a pretty nice increase in the ICE alone, probably around 25~30hp. That sounds more reasonable than the 70hp numbers floating around the rumor-net.

Well, 6% at the opimum also depends on the ICE output of latest spec in 2015.

Wazari, what is your number about it? 650hp, maybe more? 6% - 650 hp... [-o<

But maybe way too much talk about ICE.

What statements do we have from Officials?

One important:
Arai in November: "new compressor more or less same size as Mercedes 2015 compressor". However, all say still in the v of the engine.