My driver is better than yours

[Ciro Pabón]

You must realize by now that I've been looking to final 2007 statistics...

[modbaraban]

Nice. Do you have any similar tables for race finish positions?

[mahesh248]

Its cool , but with the top teams its different , they would have positions with difference of .020 seconds. The Position also was with respect to the Strategy for the next day , if one had to opt for a 1 stop strategy then he would be at the end of the grid .

[Belatti]

This shows that Massa is fast enough and that he could maybe beat Kimi next year, it surprises me the fact he is not popular even having closed the gap with MS in late 2006 and being so close to KR in 2007.

Also we can speculate that Raikkonen was learning in Ferrari and that in 2008 he will make Massa look like Yamamoto.

[mini696]

Seems to be an error in your graph... If Massa out qualified Kimi, why is his "Difference in Qualifying position" in the negative?

[mx_tifoso]

Thank you for providing us with excellent graphs and information Ciro.

This shows that Massa is fast enough and that he could maybe beat Kimi next year, it surprises me the fact he is not popular even having closed the gap with MS in late 2006 and being so close to KR in 2007.

Also we can speculate that Raikkonen was learning in Ferrari and that in 2008 he will make Massa look like Yamamoto.

I´m glad that you give Massa the credit which he deserves, but where it not for the unreliable F2007 he drove mid season, he would have had a much better season compared to the actual end result. After all, Massa finished the season only 16 points behind his Finnish teammate. And were it not for the horrible results Massa had in Canada and Italy, where he qualified 3rd and 5th respectively, he would have been much closer. And this is disregarding the many other incidents/mishaps he suffered throughout the season, such as the gearbox problem at the season opening race in Australia* and the time he ran out of fuel right after leaving his teams pit area during a GP I can´t seem to recall.

Although I would have to disagree with Raikkonen making Massa look like Yamamoto . Something tells me that Massa has a lot of potential still to expose, but then again this is one trait which happens to threaten his DC potential, IMO.

*Gearbox problem during qualy and engine change before race, which led to him starting last on the grid.

[bizadfar]

Thank you for providing us with excellent graphs and information Ciro.

This shows that Massa is fast enough and that he could maybe beat Kimi next year, it surprises me the fact he is not popular even having closed the gap with MS in late 2006 and being so close to KR in 2007.

Also we can speculate that Raikkonen was learning in Ferrari and that in 2008 he will make Massa look like Yamamoto.

I´m glad that you give Massa the credit which he deserves, but where it not for the unreliable F2007 he drove mid season, he would have had a much better season compared to the actual end result. After all, Massa finished the season only 16 points behind his Finnish teammate. And were it not for the horrible results Massa had in Canada and Italy, where he qualified 3rd and 5th respectively, he would have been much closer. And this is disregarding the many other incidents/mishaps he suffered throughout the season, such as the gearbox problem at the season opening race in Australia* and the time he ran out of fuel right after leaving his teams pit area during a GP I can´t seem to recall.

Although I would have to disagree with Raikkonen making Massa look like Yamamoto . Something tells me that Massa has a lot of potential still to expose, but then again this is one trait which happens to threaten his DC potential, IMO.

*Gearbox problem during qualy and engine change before race, which led to him starting last on the grid.

True, that was Hungary.

Massa
Australia: Gearbox in qual
Canada: Black flag
British: start from pitlane from originally P4
Hungary: Quali disaster
Italy: Suspension component failure in race

Kimi:
Malaysia: Fragile engine
Spain: Alternator in race
Monaco: Disaster in quali like Massa but caused by himself
Canada: Disaster 1st stint, lackluster overall
Europe: Hydraulics (I believe, he would've overtaken Alonso as well as Massa)
Turkish: Screwed up quali again, fastest lap.
Italy: Injured neck


Fair share of bad luck for both imo.

[Belatti]

Although I would have to disagree with Raikkonen making Massa look like Yamamoto ...

Jusk Kiddin´

But remember Kimi CAN make a very fast driver looks like a slow one:

Ciro, I would appreciate a statistical comparison from the McLaren lineup in 2005

[Ciro Pabón]

Ciro, I would appreciate a statistical comparison from the McLaren lineup in 2005

Sorry, ché. Brian Lawrence started to publish the qualies info only since 2007. I can give you the numbers for overtakings right now, information published since 1997, I think:

Number of times overtaken (2005):

Kimi: 3
JPM: 1 (best driver that year)

Number of overtakings (2005):

Kimi: 13
JPM: 10

Difference between overtakings and number of times overtaken (2005):

Kimi: 10
JPM: 9

I also have the info on races in 2005, when both finished (races won over the other team partner):

Kimi: 4
JPM: 6

... and the info on total races won, mechanical problems or not (Juan had 5 retirements because of the car or the team, Kimi had 2, both cars were retired at the Indy Michelin debacle):

Kimi: 10
Juan: 7

Finally, I have the career statistics when both drivers ran together (not necessarily on the same team, but together on track). It's a total of 95 races:

http://www.wheel2wheel.com


In the end, Kimi got 314 points to 307 of JPM, so Kimi won by 2%. I agree with what your question implies: Kimi is good, perhaps better in race than JPM, slightly less if not equal in top speed qualifying. He's our champion right now, Juan isn't.

[megz]

Kimi has made most ALL of his team mates look ordinary. He lost to Heidfeld in his 1st year but had something like 8 retirements. From memory he lost out to DC in one year as well but otherwise he has totally outclassed his team mates.

'05 Driver screw ups.

Montoya -
"Tennis Accident"
Drain Cover (Not really his fault)
Clash with Monteiro and Running wide at Turn 8 (Turkey) All his screw up. He brake tested Tiago for god sake.
Crashing out at Spa (Avoidable but Pizzonia would have been seen)

Ok so I'm all out.

Kimi -
Nurburgring (Flat spot caused while lapping Villeneuve) 50/50
Drive shaft at Imola mechnical fault
Engines going kaboom at Hockenheim, France, Silverstone, ?Monza?

Er.... I'm not seeing much that Kimster did wrong

[bizadfar]

Kimi has made most ALL of his team mates look ordinary. He lost to Heidfeld in his 1st year but had something like 8 retirements. From memory he lost out to DC in one year as well but otherwise he has totally outclassed his team mates.

'05 Driver screw ups.

Montoya -
"Tennis Accident"
Drain Cover (Not really his fault)
Clash with Monteiro and Running wide at Turn 8 (Turkey) All his screw up. He brake tested Tiago for god sake.
Crashing out at Spa (Avoidable but Pizzonia would have been seen)

Ok so I'm all out.

Kimi -
Nurburgring (Flat spot caused while lapping Villeneuve) 50/50
Drive shaft at Imola mechnical fault
Engines going kaboom at Hockenheim, France, Silverstone, ?Monza?

Er.... I'm not seeing much that Kimster did wrong

I'm not going to sit here at this moment and list everything that happened. But you must consider that Montoya himself had a few hydraulics caused DNFs (eg France, Hungary. Some believe he would've won Hungary, was possible for sure). He spun in Spain (but kept his position)

Kimi was lots of times relegated 10 spots on grid
In Spa, Montoya only put 10laps on his engine in practice sessions
Kimi was relegated 10 spots on grid in Monza. This was the defining moment for me in season. He had 5 full laps more than Montoya and still got the fastest quali time.
Canada Montoya was black flagged, he would've won that one for sure too.
Germany quali, Montoya dropped it on his outlap (last corner). He made up for it in the race finishing 2nd, but still behind Alonso. Kimi had hydraulics failure that race.
In turkey, when montoya went wide on turn 8, his diffuser was heavily damaged from that contact with the Jordon (Monteiro?)
He did NOT brake test the Jordon, Monteiro was sleeping.
Brazil, Montoya land, dominated there
Japan, Montoya shoved out of track by Villeneuve. Odd case, i reckon it was 50/50, Montoya probably should've lifted and slotted in behind, or turned in/intimidated Villeneuve lol.
China the drain cover.. yea

[rkn]

@ Monza: Kimi screwd up his left rear during the race. Probably due to consistent overload through parabolica.

[bizadfar]

True.

Kimi's happened around after 1st stop. Also he carried more fuel load (more load on car).

Montoya's happened towards the end.

I believe it's a majority setup issue/mistake

[megz]

He DID brake test Monteiro, its really obvious on the '05 DVD of the F1 world championship. He makes the pass, pulls back in front, then hits the brakes (early) he was asking for it.

After that scene it cuts to Monteiro talking about how they're told in the GPDA meetings how they should react in those situations.

Totally avoidable had he just braked at the normal point and next to the Jordan rather than cutting in front.

[bizadfar]

that was not a brake test.

And yes I remember everyone talking about that saying he should've just kept his line. wrong. Schumi, Kimi, Alonso, they all do it to keep there tyres clean as possible.