more cheating for mclaren...

[allan]

i've just read ur edited reply, and i just want to clear that i didnt intend to get personal with anybody... it's just an expression i always use.
i don't know anything about u mc, so my intention was not to insult u in any way. sorry for that.

[Spencifer_Murphy]

Allan, I think what Manchild is trying to get at is that, every F1 team cheats to some degree - or should I say "Bends the Rules". But sometimes they bend the rules too far and they get caught out - Ferrari in 2002 @ Austria, Schumi at Monaco 2006 are two good examples.

Now, I know he has a habit of useing Ferrari as a scapegoat - BUT they are a good example to set, because when they do cock-it-up and get slapped on the wrists IT IS HIGH PROFILE - just like Mclaren with their spygate scandal in 2007.

Manchild isn't saying that Ferrari cheat and no1 else does, he's just pointing out that others cheat also and Ferrari is the team that springs to his mind because - as a fan - he feels hard done-by by them.

Put it this way - talk to me about cheating and - insted of Ferrari - the first thing I think of (in F1 terms) is Michael Schumacher and Benetton. Now that doesn't mean that only schumi cheats - it doesn't even mean he's the worst cheat of all - it's just the example that springs most quickly to mind, as is - and such - the best example (due to clarity of memory) for me to use.

Now Back to topic...
Getting the 5th garage does not mean that Mclaren have cheated to get it. Nuff said.

[Ray]

Second, the FIA have nothing to do with this, Bernie is not part of the FIA!

Maybe I'm wrong, but as far as I understood Bernie controlled the FOM. Tv rights, merch and stuff like that. I don't think he's part of the ruling body of the FIA, and therefore can't decide what teams get what pitbox. Again, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think Bernie has the official power/authority to go against FIA rules and rulings. They were stripped of WCC for 2007 and therefore get the last pitbox.

I agree with you on that one Ray. Last in points last in pitlane. That's how it should be (even though being a Lewis, Heikki & McMerc fan I LIKE this turn of events I cannot deny that maybe it isn't really the most - for want of a better word - honest thing for the FIA to have sancitioned.) All being said though, I think McMerc do deserve this in one way, as the punishment delt to them, IMHO, was too harsh to start with.

Although, maybe the theory is that technically they aren't last in points, Mclaren drivers scored enough points to be 1st (or 2nd?) but the team was not allowed to use those points in the 2007 WCC. There's a bit of a grey area there which I think has been expolited to allow Mc-Merc to have a half decent pit box.

Not true. Not even close. They were stripped of 2007 WCC points completely. No gray area there because were they not only stripped of points, no McLaren rep was allowed on the podium and other constructors points were not affected. So I don't see how it can be even thought that there is a gray area with them getting a pitbox because "in theory". Theory is moot. They were punished, a ruling was set, and that ruling should be upheld.

Might I also add that when a ruling comes down from a governing body, you either abide by said ruling to the utmost, or you appeal. They decided not to appeal, so by that, to me, it means they accept the full punishment. They don't deserve leniency because they are a big name in F1, or someone feels sorry for them. Bernie, again as far as I know, does not have the authority to change rules/bend rules because he feels like it. McLaren are a very good team, but do you think anyone besides them or Ferrari would get this treatment? No way. Bernie is in it for commercial reasons, not for what's right or how he feels about the Ferrari/McLaren frontrunner battle.

You have to stick to your guns, so to speak, and the ruling should be the last word. McLaren, due to a lack of WCC points get the last pitbox in accordance with FIA rules. Period. End of story.

[Spencifer_Murphy]

I agree with you Ray, I was just pointing out what the theory may have been.

That said, I still stand by that if somebody in a position of power offers you leaniancy - gratis - then no1 would turn it down would they?

And I agree that even though they would - its not really right is it?

[Ray]

I agree with you Ray, I was just pointing out what the theory may have been.

That said, I still stand by that if somebody in a position of power offers you leaniancy - gratis - then no1 would turn it down would they?

And I agree that even though they would - its not really right is it?

But I thought that Ron Dennis was better known as 'Honest Ron'? So he should be honest enough to take his punishment like a man! All joking aside, I really hope they can use this better pitbox to mount a good challenge and make an interesting and enjoyable season. No more scandals and rulings, let the teams race!

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, that's cheating by FIA on the other teams, if you ask me. Of course, I'll wait till I see it. As usual, let me explain with a joke (I hope I don't get crucified as racist.. ):

There was once a dispute over where blacks and whites should sit in buses. This happened in a country I won't mention. Let's call it Funited Fstates of Famerica. Blacks used to sit in the back, whites in front. One day there was a huge dispute in a bus over the places where to sit. Everybody was yelling and arguing and it seemed it was imminent an ugly fight.

Suddenly this guy stands up and says: "Shut up! Listen to me! I have a proposition!"

He continued: "Isn't it disgusting to argue over the position in the bus? I'll tell you what to do. From now on, we're not white nor black. We're all green! We won't discriminate any more based on colour, because we're all green. Agreed?"

People thought for a minute and everybody concurred: it was a good idea. People relaxed, smiles started to fly. Some blacks started to move to the front of the bus, some whites moved to the back. Suddenly the guy continued:

"Just one more thing: the dark green guys go in the back of the bus".

[Spencifer_Murphy]

Now THAT I agree with Ray - Lets see the drivers race for the championship on track - rather than lawyers fight for it in a court.

[Rob W]

It might not be fair but in the long run it is better for F1 that Mclaren have a chance to compete this year. A low end grid spot might just dissadvantage a wounded team right out of a competitive position.

I don't think McLaren are in any worse position than more than half of the grid are always in!

I've not seen the reasoning why they were given this pit box but think it's unfair on the teams when the criteria for pit-box allocation are overruled because of non-sporting reasons. Everyone knows how the boxes are allocated and it is a thing to work towards for teams. Everyone know the rules of F1 before 'entering'. Subverting the process everyone else is happy to go by like this makes me think Bernie has some weird info we don't know about. The FIA should maintain the notion that it doesn't matter which box you're in, and it offers no team a real advantage during the race. As soon as they agree the position (other thn maybe the first position) matters - they're making a(nother) mockery of their own ability to manage F1.

So why make something of it and open themselves to criticism by manually moving McLaren's spot in contradiction to how every other team knows the allocation system works?

R

[Rob W]

...by giving them the last place in the pits would really dent their chances to take to it Ferrari.

Are you saying the pit-box placement makes so much difference? If it really does, then how come I've never heard any team making suggestions to even up this aspect of F1 races so as to keep the competition on the track?

Do winners deserve an extra advantage? Can you show me any other sport where a winner is given a clear advantage for the next season?

F1 has had enough non-track advantages 'granted' in the past (such as certain teams having access to special tires or being allowed leeway in measurements) for something like pit-box location to be used now as some sort of advantage.

R

[Ciro Pabón]

Can you show me any other sport where a winner is given a clear advantage for the next season?

Football (soccer for our impeded friends in US): the world champion has a slot guaranteed in the next tournament. Same goes for Cup America (no, not THAT Cup America, but the other one).

[manchild]

Remember that race when Schuey won by crossing the finish line in the pits? It is definitely not the same where the garage is, at least relative to start-finish line.

[Ray]

Remember that race when Schuey won by crossing the finish line in the pits? It is definitely not the same where the garage is, at least relative to start-finish line.

While I don't often agree with your very poor view of Ferrari, him winning in the pits and winning the race was really really cheap.

[Benniau]

Seriously though... What is the advantage of being at the end of the pitlane as apposed to the start? It is still the same distance of travel at a limited speed. Is it something to do with the tyres cooling down too much after they come out of the tyre warmers? That's the only thing I can think of.
Oh and I suppose with they hold out the info boards to the driver, if your at the start of the straight you wouldn't have as much time to read the board?

[Giblet]

Besides status, the advantage of being in front of all the cars, all thing being equal, is that there is less potential for traffic problems, and in most circuits you dont have to steer clear of the team in front you, maybe even one staggering their stops with two cars in the pits. Everyone but the lead team has to jink left to rejoin the pit lane.

The advantage isn't huge, but it is awarded to the winner.

[Shaddock]

Remember that race when Schuey won by crossing the finish line in the pits? It is definitely not the same where the garage is, at least relative to start-finish line.

While I don't often agree with your very poor view of Ferrari, him winning in the pits and winning the race was really really cheap.

Not all the garages are the same size. The higher you finish in the championship the bigger your berth for next year. McLaren probably wouldn't fit all their kit into some of the garages at the bottom end of the pit lane.

People forget that Bernie wants the sport to be a spectacle that attracts TV viewers. A runaway year for Ferrari (or any team) isn't exciting and people don't watch.