2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[Squid]

Why do they need to be a works team to win red bull are faster than Renault this season. If being works somehow allows you to get extra power from the engine we are not talking about huge gains I would guess around half a second per lap would be the maximum which is smaller than the current gap between Renault and Mercedes. So if red bull had a Mercedes engine it would be likely they would be fighting for the championship dispite not being a works team they nearly are without the best engine so Ron was wrong when he said you cannot win

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Renault is in the process of rebuilding their whole team and infrastructure. They are clearly not at 100% in development, nor do they have top tier drivers at the same level as Hamilton. Mercedes is a stable team with 8 years of constant activity and 3 WCC's under their belt. I assure you, currently it's much easier to beat Renault with a Renault engine than Mercedes with a Mercedes engine.

[marmer]

Why do they need to be a works team to win red bull are faster than Renault this season. If being works somehow allows you to get extra power from the engine we are not talking about huge gains I would guess around half a second per lap would be the maximum which is smaller than the current gap between Renault and Mercedes. So if red bull had a Mercedes engine it would be likely they would be fighting for the championship dispite not being a works team they nearly are without the best engine so Ron was wrong when he said you cannot win

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What do you think about that . We assume RBR uses merc PU. RBR and Merc in wdc challange and just 10 bhp is enought to Merc team to get WDC and WCC.
What do you think Renault team and RBR in same situation ?
You can't be sure even in current condition that Renault team PU doesn't works better than Renault PU at RBR

The point I am making is the engine is not worth a huge amount a top car designed correctly can beat a works team

Brawn won the wdc and wcc dispite being in the first year with that engine and McLaren where effectively the works team with force India also using the engine

McLaren came 3rd in the wcc while force India were 9th.
And they didn't know they would be using Mercedes until a late stage yet still managed to be the best. The design of the rest of the car is worth far more lap time than the engine alone

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[etusch]

Why do they need to be a works team to win red bull are faster than Renault this season. If being works somehow allows you to get extra power from the engine we are not talking about huge gains I would guess around half a second per lap would be the maximum which is smaller than the current gap between Renault and Mercedes. So if red bull had a Mercedes engine it would be likely they would be fighting for the championship dispite not being a works team they nearly are without the best engine so Ron was wrong when he said you cannot win

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What do you think about that . We assume RBR uses merc PU. RBR and Merc in wdc challange and just 10 bhp is enought to Merc team to get WDC and WCC.
What do you think Renault team and RBR in same situation ?
You can't be sure even in current condition that Renault team PU doesn't works better than Renault PU at RBR

The point I am making is the engine is not worth a huge amount a top car designed correctly can beat a works team

Brawn won the wdc and wcc dispite being in the first year with that engine and McLaren where effectively the works team with force India also using the engine

McLaren came 3rd in the wcc while force India were 9th.
And they didn't know they would be using Mercedes until a late stage yet still managed to be the best. The design of the rest of the car is worth far more lap time than the engine alone

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Yes if you that much better on chassis side. Brawn is not good example. Do you think mclaren can do that much better chassis this ferrari and merc at this era.

[Big Mangalhit]

I think beating a works team with the same engine was valid in the past. Now engines are too complex and the work team can always have the engine advantage just by choosing not to share their ECU management code. There is huge lap time in the software and the engine manufacturer can release different versions to the clients. So basically if McLaren was fighting with merc with merc engine I am sure they would have way worse management software. Also the integration of these huge complex PU are very important and the works team will always have the edge on that as well

[marmer]

I think beating a works team with the same engine was valid in the past. Now engines are too complex and the work team can always have the engine advantage just by choosing not to share their ECU management code. There is huge lap time in the software and the engine manufacturer can release different versions to the clients. So basically if McLaren was fighting with merc with merc engine I am sure they would have way worse management software. Also the integration of these huge complex PU are very important and the works team will always have the edge on that as well

This is banned by the FIA is it not. But surely the top engineering teams would see any significant built in inefficient modes to limit them and either complain or write there own code. Mercedes might say it's against there license to use in signed code but in practice that would mean unlocking the engine properly so they wouldn't

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[FW17]

I think beating a works team with the same engine was valid in the past. Now engines are too complex and the work team can always have the engine advantage just by choosing not to share their ECU management code. There is huge lap time in the software and the engine manufacturer can release different versions to the clients. So basically if McLaren was fighting with merc with merc engine I am sure they would have way worse management software. Also the integration of these huge complex PU are very important and the works team will always have the edge on that as well

This is banned by the FIA is it not. But surely the top engineering teams would see any significant built in inefficient modes to limit them and either complain or write there own code. Mercedes might say it's against there license to use in signed code but in practice that would mean unlocking the engine properly so they wouldn't

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Different engine maps are allowed by FIA

[Big Mangalhit]

I think beating a works team with the same engine was valid in the past. Now engines are too complex and the work team can always have the engine advantage just by choosing not to share their ECU management code. There is huge lap time in the software and the engine manufacturer can release different versions to the clients. So basically if McLaren was fighting with merc with merc engine I am sure they would have way worse management software. Also the integration of these huge complex PU are very important and the works team will always have the edge on that as well

This is banned by the FIA is it not. But surely the top engineering teams would see any significant built in inefficient modes to limit them and either complain or write there own code. Mercedes might say it's against there license to use in signed code but in practice that would mean unlocking the engine properly so they wouldn't

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No McLaren engineer will ever get to see Mercedes code. Also they can send different codes. Heck nowadays they can even have the upgrade version of an engine ready just a few GP's later.

I really don't think Findia and williams can extract the same of merc PU as Merc can. The two main reasons for that are probably the agressive code maps and the integration with the rest of the car.
I bet they can't even go with a low cooling setup as aggressive as mercedes cause mercedes wouldn't want to risk the publicity of their PU's blowing.

If you think about it there are always more problems with factory Merc PU than with the clients. I would say it's because they ran more aggressive modes and cooling

[marmer]

Just noting Alonso has stopped on track

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[Squid]

Loss of hydraulic pressure. Alonso also mentioned the gearbox was acting weird.

[etusch]

I think beating a works team with the same engine was valid in the past. Now engines are too complex and the work team can always have the engine advantage just by choosing not to share their ECU management code. There is huge lap time in the software and the engine manufacturer can release different versions to the clients. So basically if McLaren was fighting with merc with merc engine I am sure they would have way worse management software. Also the integration of these huge complex PU are very important and the works team will always have the edge on that as well

This is banned by the FIA is it not. But surely the top engineering teams would see any significant built in inefficient modes to limit them and either complain or write there own code. Mercedes might say it's against there license to use in signed code but in practice that would mean unlocking the engine properly so they wouldn't

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No McLaren engineer will ever get to see Mercedes code. Also they can send different codes. Heck nowadays they can even have the upgrade version of an engine ready just a few GP's later.

I really don't think Findia and williams can extract the same of merc PU as Merc can. The two main reasons for that are probably the agressive code maps and the integration with the rest of the car.
I bet they can't even go with a low cooling setup as aggressive as mercedes cause mercedes wouldn't want to risk the publicity of their PU's blowing.

If you think about it there are always more problems with factory Merc PU than with the clients. I would say it's because they ran more aggressive modes and cooling

This is 7th race and if they didn't change for Canada race, Williams and FIndia uses their first engines still. They are not trying to push harder just doing it with lesser possible engine. This how costumers think when the engine so expensive.
By the way van Doorne's lap time is not bad. 2.1 sec slower from fastest this kind of power circuit. I think with 10 kw more they will be reasonably good.

[shady]

FI and Williams do have access to the same code as mandated by the FIA, the upgrade schedule may be different (new spec parts but reach eventual parity) the difference is that they are customer teams, meaning that they have to buy more engines, so they CHOOSE not to run their PU as extremely as the works team, there are a certain number of KMs on each PU and if you dont run the Q3 mode your PU should in theory last longer. The only delta is the update schedule, and Merc is pretty decent about getting their customers the PU the race after they introduce it, esp since they rarely have setbacks introducing a new spec.

[ronanharris09]

But remember, there are still 89 days left for Honda, the contract can be cancelled anytime. . .

[Big Mangalhit]

This is banned by the FIA is it not. But surely the top engineering teams would see any significant built in inefficient modes to limit them and either complain or write there own code. Mercedes might say it's against there license to use in signed code but in practice that would mean unlocking the engine properly so they wouldn't

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No McLaren engineer will ever get to see Mercedes code. Also they can send different codes. Heck nowadays they can even have the upgrade version of an engine ready just a few GP's later.

I really don't think Findia and williams can extract the same of merc PU as Merc can. The two main reasons for that are probably the agressive code maps and the integration with the rest of the car.
I bet they can't even go with a low cooling setup as aggressive as mercedes cause mercedes wouldn't want to risk the publicity of their PU's blowing.

If you think about it there are always more problems with factory Merc PU than with the clients. I would say it's because they ran more aggressive modes and cooling

This is 7th race and if they didn't change for Canada race, Williams and FIndia uses their first engines still. They are not trying to push harder just doing it with lesser possible engine. This how costumers think when the engine so expensive.
By the way van Doorne's lap time is not bad. 2.1 sec slower from fastest this kind of power circuit. I think with 10 kw more they will be reasonably good.

What I meant is that in an hipotethical situation of McLaren disputing the WCC against Mercedes using a Mercedes engine. The factory team could delay the upgrades to McLaren because that is theoretically aloud.

2,1sec of the pace of FP1. That fast lap will drop by a lot. Also McLaren problem is not (only) in the single lap mode, is the compound mode.

[Big Mangalhit]

FI and Williams do have access to the same code as mandated by the FIA, the upgrade schedule may be different (new spec parts but reach eventual parity) the difference is that they are customer teams, meaning that they have to buy more engines, so they CHOOSE not to run their PU as extremely as the works team, there are a certain number of KMs on each PU and if you dont run the Q3 mode your PU should in theory last longer. The only delta is the update schedule, and Merc is pretty decent about getting their customers the PU the race after they introduce it, esp since they rarely have setbacks introducing a new spec.

Yes they are, while non of the teams compete against them...

Would it be the same if they were being challenged? same to Ferrari obviously

[j.yank]

FI and Williams do have access to the same code as mandated by the FIA, the upgrade schedule may be different (new spec parts but reach eventual parity) the difference is that they are customer teams, meaning that they have to buy more engines, so they CHOOSE not to run their PU as extremely as the works team, there are a certain number of KMs on each PU and if you dont run the Q3 mode your PU should in theory last longer. The only delta is the update schedule, and Merc is pretty decent about getting their customers the PU the race after they introduce it, esp since they rarely have setbacks introducing a new spec.

Once Scrabs said that one of the biggest F1 secrets of the works teams are the gear boxes. The engine power should be transferred to the wheels and there is the biggest problem for the custom teams. You can have the same engine code but you don't have its interface with the chassis. Yes, in addition to this they probably are running in conservative modes but I doubt that in certain moments they would not choose to run at full power - nevertheless this never has happen so far.