Will 4 wheel steering make it's way into F1?

[Conceptual]

With the new proposed regulations seemingly targeting efficiency of aero and engine, I was wondering if 4 wheel steering would make its way into F1.

Anyone care to discuss the pros and cons of a 4 wheel steering system?

Thanks!

Chris

[JiMbO]

didnt benetton have 4 wheel steering back when schuie was driving for them??

[Alexpcenteno]

Well I guess the turning speeds would grow tremendously and also the traction on going in and out of the curves. Althought I don't think they would let the cars use 4 wheel steering ever because of the dangerous speeds... I once posted about a project made by brazilian engineers of F1 car whit no limits and they desing a car with 4 wheel steering but the curves speed was so high and the g-forces were so strong that it could nock a driver unconcious.

Sorry for my bad english.

[timbo]

Anyone care to discuss the pros and cons of a 4 wheel steering system?

Thanks!

Chris

The major con is that only two wheels might be streered by F1 rules.

[WhiteBlue]

it is a question of philosphy. certainly 4WD is very likely to return in 1011 with KERS on both front wheels and rear wheels. it is unclear how that will work out with the philosophy of not having elelctronic driver aids.

4WS would be performance enhancing without needing sunstantial energy and driver aids. it could be a feature that would fit into a low carbon, high performance driver controled way of thinking.

if there is a 4WD rethink there could also be a 4WS approach.

[Metar]

didnt benetton have 4 wheel steering back when schuie was driving for them??

That's what I recall - I also recall that he didn't find any extra speed with it.

[WhiteBlue]

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/03/22/b ... -steering/

they only tested it in 1993 and never raced it. Schumachers comment:

It feels very good, but actually it doesn’t change things a lot. I am using the same lines and there isn’t a lot of movement at the rear. It makes it a little easier, but right now the system doesn’t work very well in the slow corners, so we might not use it in Adelaide.

this indicates the system wasn't well developed and there could well be potential in it if only for the Canadian marshals to get cars into the exit roads.


it is mainly used for parking assistence in road cars.

[Conceptual]

As WhiteBlue pointed out, it would become another efficiency. I don't know that it would necessarily increase traction in the corners (upping the speed), but understeer would pretty much go away. Im sure that there would be a limit imposed, like a max of 3 degrees +/-.

I don't know. With AWD KERS, low downforce, and everything centered upon energy reclaiming, I think that the 4WS would increase tyre life as well as lessen graining.

I think that if the main objective is to increase passing attempts in F1, you have to set the rules in such a manner that allows for multiple racing lines through the corners. If there is more than one line, the the procession stops. Drivers then could go off-line to overtake, and I think a decreased turning radius would be central to accomplishing that. After that, it comes down to reducing graining (marble buildup off-line), and I believe that the reintroduction of slicks will be a huge help there since there wont be as many edges to start the rolling up of the rubber.

Let me get some coffee in me here, and I'll revisit this post when I am actually here!

Chris

[Jersey Tom]

Understeer would not go away, and corner speeds would probably not go up measurably.

[bizadfar]

Nissan has this in their R32 or R33 Skylines called HICAS system. Many say it makes the car unpredictable and alot of ppl turn it off.

[nae]

there is not real need for 4 wheel steering
except in forklifts and mobile cranes

or to help old people park better

is it not something like a 5% slip angle that
gives maximum grip whilst cornering, 4ws would
kill any slip.

in my view its is an unnecessary complication
in any car

[Jersey Tom]

there is not real need for 4 wheel steering
except in forklifts and mobile cranes

NAE gets it.

[Ciro Pabón]

Almost got it. What about monster trucks?

[Conceptual]

Nissan has this in their R32 or R33 Skylines called HICAS system. Many say it makes the car unpredictable and alot of ppl turn it off.

Is that because it is bad, or just because it is different, and not played with long enough to understand?

As a driver, what is the benefits of 4WS? And what do you lose? Is it more viable in a vehicle with 4 wheel independent drive? Could it be implemented mechanically without computer control?

Thanks!

Chris

BTW: I have never driven a 4WS forklift, but I have operated several rear wheel steering models. Even the high reach trucks don't have 4WS. In my mind, I can see it as advantageous because the traction of your tyres is evenly split between turning and accel/brake. If it is possible to decrease the front wheel vector by having a rear wheel vector, you could have a T/P split of 70/30 + 5/95 (4WD/4WS) instead of a 90/10 + 0/100 (RWD/FWS). Thus the 4WS/D setup would have more available traction for accel/braking.

If my understanding is incorrect, will someone please inform me of how it really works!

Chris

[Jersey Tom]

The rear tires already steer into the turn, every bit as much as the fronts. The difference is, whereas the fronts are steered by driver input.. the rears are steered by the chassis yawing.

In a road vehicle on turn entry you WANT only the fronts to steer. Momentarily when you move the steering angle the fronts are the only tires developing lateral force and thus develop a yaw acceleration which starts the car actually turning. Once the chassis yaws a bit that steers the rear tires, the yaw moment goes away but the car is still rotating, and is now cornering.

On a neutral car, mid corner at max capacity the front AND rear tires are already steered to their max/optimum point. Having additional steering would do nothing. If your car was understeer and the rears had excess grip capacity yea you could technically steer them some more but that will just make the car plow. I'd imagine it would make the car understeer more.. you'd get a bit more lateral acceleration very briefly and then the car would start to yaw OUT of the turn! Not very good for getting the car pointing down a straight.

4WS is good for a low speed or stationary application when you want something that can turn on basically 0 radius (like a forklift) or move purely laterally without really "turning" the car (ultimate for parallel parking!).

But there's no reason for it on a good racecar.