McLaren Paddle Shift

[timbo]

I think the "news" may be that they found how to use these paddles with the gear changes. Probably engine mapping changes were made by paddles for a long time for ergonomics but the idea of using it for a makeshift TC may be relatively new.

[myurr]

I think the "news" may be that they found how to use these paddles with the gear changes. Probably engine mapping changes were made by paddles for a long time for ergonomics but the idea of using it for a makeshift TC may be relatively new.

And what have you based your accusation on? Is there any evidence at all that the McLarens are changing map on every gear shift (watch the in car videos and Hamilton often changes gear using just one finger, ie. not pulling both paddles at the same time)?

How is it a makeshift TC anyway? All it is able to do is change the way the throttle responds - the driver still has to manually control the wheel spin. This isn't some automatic setting that lets the computer control wheel spin.

[timbo]

And what have you based your accusation on? Is there any evidence at all that the McLarens are changing map on every gear shift (watch the in car videos and Hamilton often changes gear using just one finger, ie. not pulling both paddles at the same time)?

Firstly, in no way what I said is accusation of any kind. As long as it deemed legal by FIA, well, it's legal.
Secondly, I am not the one who issued the idea that McLaren uses their paddle system to control engine maps. Nor I am the only one that supports that opinion.
In car videos can't be evidence not for nor against that "theory" as we don't know how many maps they have and what are optimal moments to change them.

How is it a makeshift TC anyway? All it is able to do is change the way the throttle responds - the driver still has to manually control the wheel spin. This isn't some automatic setting that lets the computer control wheel spin.

Ain't it easier to control wheelspin if a system limits avaible torque?

[zac510]

Ain't it easier to control wheelspin if a system limits avaible torque?

You could call a gearbox a torque limiting system then, or a throttle, too..

[myurr]

Firstly, in no way what I said is accusation of any kind. As long as it deemed legal by FIA, well, it's legal.
Secondly, I am not the one who issued the idea that McLaren uses their paddle system to control engine maps. Nor I am the only one that supports that opinion.
In car videos can't be evidence not for nor against that "theory" as we don't know how many maps they have and what are optimal moments to change them.

I think the "news" may be that they found how to use these paddles with the gear changes. Probably engine mapping changes were made by paddles for a long time for ergonomics but the idea of using it for a makeshift TC may be relatively new.

Apologies if I misread it, but sounds pretty specific and accusatory to me - specifically that McLaren are using this system as a way of implementing a simple TC like system. Sure you don't say it's illegal, but you give connotations that McLaren are somehow subverting the rules that ban TC systems.

Ain't it easier to control wheelspin if a system limits avaible torque?

Complete red herring - that's like saying that increasing rear downforce makes it easier to control wheelspin, and therefore is a form of traction control.

[myurr]

Ain't it easier to control wheelspin if a system limits avaible torque?

Complete red herring - that's like saying that increasing rear downforce makes it easier to control wheelspin, and therefore is a form of traction control.

In fact you can take it even further and say that Ferrari have implemented a makeshift ABS systems because their drivers can change brake bias between corners, and they have two makeshift traction control systems because they can change engine map and differential settings.

Frankly the important point is that if the car itself has any intelligence, ie. it is making decisions on behalf of the driver, then it is a driver aid whether legal or otherwise. All this McLaren device is able to do is allow the driver to make tuning adjustments in a more ergonomic form than implemented by the other teams.

We don't even know if they make changes on every gear change - all I've seen is speculation based on the paddles being next to the gear levers - so in reality we don't know if they are actually doing anything different to all the other teams.

[zac510]

Well said myurr!

[timbo]

[Apologies if I misread it, but sounds pretty specific and accusatory to me - specifically that McLaren are using this system as a way of implementing a simple TC like system. Sure you don't say it's illegal, but you give connotations that McLaren are somehow subverting the rules that ban TC systems.

So the problem is that I used "TC" in what I've written? If I said "torque limiting" would it be easier on you?
Now, I used "TC" because by what I've read here and in other places, the common opinion that this system is supposed to help the driver to control wheelspin by limiting of the torque curve. This is precisely what traction control does. Sure, the key differense is in how it is operated - by the driver or by electronics. In that light McLaren's system is legal and I never argued that. Still, FIA may ban it but we have seen this many times.

Complete red herring - that's like saying that increasing rear downforce makes it easier to control wheelspin, and therefore is a form of traction control.

Difference is - McLaren's paddle system is active. You can have different behaviour of engine at low speeds and at high speeds, while active aero is forbidden (I'm not talking future). For many years FIA tried to strip engines from active systems. There's no variable intake and exhaust geometry, and even variable valve timing is forbidden!

[bazanaius]

I don't think this is 'illegal', and as far as I can see there is nothing to stop other teams using it (as long as they developed it themselves after seeing the steering wheel, much like we have); in that case there is no reason to ban it. I think as little as possible should be banned from F1, otherwise we'll kill of any kind of inventiveness in the sport, and I'll be looking elsewhere for a job when I graduate

[McMacca]

I think this is perfectly legal too, there is supposedly wording in the rules which watered down goes 'engine map cannot be changed automatically on gear shift....can be controled by the driver'

[CMSMJ1]

This is nothing sinister..it is the removal of a function from the front of the wheel to the rear of the wheel.

Simple as that. In the move the drivers will have some preselece maps to use and probably the full range of controls on the dials left ont he face of the wheel.

A clever idea and one we should be applauding.

It is the same as my Laguna..used to have to fiddle with my radio..now I flick levers behind my wheel..

[zac510]

I think this is perfectly legal too, there is supposedly wording in the rules which watered down goes 'engine map cannot be changed automatically on gear shift....can be controled by the driver'

Be careful - when you misquote the rule it makes this interpretation sound illegal.

[McMacca]

I'm sure you mean 'make it sound legal' ? anyway does anyone have the exact wording of this rule?

And I have to agree with some of the other posts here, it looks like the extra paddles have been arround for a while, and they probably weren't the silver bullet that made LH like greased lightning in Germany. I'm not sure that it was the new fuel / lube combo either.

[bazanaius]

I think it's a combination of lots of things, that just happened to all come together at hockenheim.

unless you have news about a secret reason? Tell tell!

[timbo]

The apparent good shape of McLaren was a result of as much their progress as Ferrari's lack of form.

anyway does anyone have the exact wording of this rule?

I read 2008 regulations and other than:
"All components of the engine and gearbox, including clutch, differential and all associated actuators must be controlled by an Electronic Control Unit (ECU) which has been manufactured by an FIA designated supplier to a specification determined by the FIA. The ECU may only be used with FIA approved software and may only be connected to the control system wiring loom, sensors and actuators in an manner specified by the FIA."
there's no actual general limitations. I think the key is ECU, and knowledge of what it can do. That's where McLaren strength may be.