What is seamless gear box???

[ss.vamsikrishna]

is this something new concept ???does other teams have this or force india has come up with this idea???any ideas
if new idea = yes
then how does it work compared to old gear boxes ????

[mx_tifoso]

I don't know how it works exactly, but it reduces the time inbetween shifts for even greater performance. Theres more to it I'm sure, maybe someone else can explain it further.

But I can tell you for sure that a 'seamless' gearbox is not new for this season in Formula One. It was first used last season, or possibly even 2006 by a few teams.

And no, Force India did not come up with it nor were the first team to use it. Quite the opposite actually, as you may have read in some of the news here at F1T, Force India is the LAST team to make use of it. And according to them they are expecting a few tenths of a second from it when it is introduced for actual racing by the European GP (if not later).

[bar555]

Check the links
http://www.f1network.net/main/s491/st128891.htm
http://www.f1network.net/main/s491/st128890.htm
http://www.manipef1.com/news/2008/index.php?id=1729
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3UpBKXMRto

[timbo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3UpBKXMRto

Just for the note, seamless gearbox is not a CVT as it has fixed gears. It only eliminates lag between bear on and gear off.

[bar555]

Just reffered to this link because Williams was the 1st team to investigate-test new gearbox - gear shift technologies

CVT gearbox was banned before even used in a race because using a CVT gearbox is like having endless gears and a zero time gear changing rate .

[HKS]

Here is a discussion on seamless gearshifts from F1 Passionates forum

http://www.f1passionates.com/index.php/topic,421.0.html

This should help you Vamsikrishna

[alelanza]

Hehe, what are the chances, i was just asking about this in another forum today, in the end i think i found the answer on my own, quoting myself:

On seamless gearboxes I found this:

http://www.zeroshift.com/pdf/RcarN6V15_Zeroshift.pdf

Explains the technology quite well, yet is rather old and even the webpage doesn't make any specific claims towards F1

However this would seem to confirm that at least the same principle is being used by F1 teams:

http://www.zeroshift.com/pdf/F1%20Racing%20Oct07.pdf

With the particular dampening system remaining a mystery that each team might have solved in different ways. It also mentions double clutches being banned from F1.

Regards!

http://forums.f1-live.com/viewtopic.php ... 01#p238501

[alelanza]

Here is a discussion on seamless gearshifts from F1 Passionates forum

http://www.f1passionates.com/index.php/topic,421.0.html

This should help you Vamsikrishna

If I may, i believe that's a dsg which is banned in F1. Seamless is sequential thus it has no heli gears and, from what i read today, does not use the more common sync rings depicted in that post. Pls correct me if i'm wrong

[scarbs]

Now that Force India have got their seamless shift working (if not raced as yet) then all the teams have this technology.

Although Williams tested a CVT back in the nineties they were subsequently banned, as they have more than 7 speed (effectively they have an infinite number of ratios). Quicker shifts then were tried with McLaren's stillborn MP4-18 which had a double clutch set up, the FIA issued a clarification about how a double clutch could work (only one ratio can be engaged at once, such that the two clutches couldn't be phased to blur the point between shifts - again creating more than seven driven ratios). along with the rest of the car the idea was dropped by Mac.

Then McLaren and Honda simultaneously introduced single clutch - seamless shifts in 2004 (IIRC), it took time but latterly Renault, Ferrari, & BMW introduced theirs in 2007 followed by Red Bull.

Williams created their first seamless shift for 2006, initially their gearbox was a double clutch (they were able to demonstrate only clutch is engaged at any one time, making it legal), the second clutch riding behind the gearbox controlling half of the ratios. The unit was a reliability disaster, their second generation gearbox was co-developed with Toyota (Williams the mechanics - Toyota the control software), this unit used a single clutch.

Contrary to popular belief most seamless shifts do not use Zeroshift or any clever dog ring set ups. Nor does the power remain uninterrupted (i.e. no full throttle full engine load shifts). In fact the shift is simply controlled by two selector drums, each operating alternate gears. Thus the engagement of the next gear can be progressing as the old gear is disengaged, this can occur as the engine\gearbox load is momentarily eased with a ignition\throttle cut and clutch disengaged. In a normal gearbox the adjoining gears are controlled by a single selector, thus the old gear has to be disengaged before the selector can engage the next gear. Reducing this undriven time is where the "seamless" element is brought in and saves time on shifts. This seamless shift is only possible with highly accurate hydraulics and electronics, one timing error and the gearbox goes kablam..! The SECU's introduction is believed to be responsible for some winter gearbox woes.

[alelanza]

Contrary to popular belief most seamless shifts do not use Zeroshift or any clever dog ring set ups. Nor does the power remain uninterrupted (i.e. no full throttle full engine load shifts). In fact the shift is simply controlled by two selector drums, each operating alternate gears. Thus the engagement of the next gear can be progressing as the old gear is disengaged, this can occur as the engine\gearbox load is momentarily eased with a ignition\throttle cut and clutch disengaged. In a normal gearbox the adjoining gears are controlled by a single selector, thus the old gear has to be disengaged before the selector can engage the next gear. Reducing this undriven time is where the "seamless" element is brought in and saves time on shifts. This seamless shift is only possible with highly accurate hydraulics and electronics, one timing error and the gearbox goes kablam..! The SECU's introduction is believed to be responsible for some winter gearbox woes.

Interesting. Can’t say that i have fully understood your explanation, language barrier perhaps, will read from home again. Nevertheless I did come across similar answers to yours while looking for data, but I never found any references that would confirm/deny the system that is used, except that last f1racing pdf that I pasted. On the other hand, if zeroshift was used I would also expect their website to make a point out of that. Do you have any links/references to confirm the system you describe?
Many thanks!

[Conceptual]

Contrary to popular belief most seamless shifts do not use Zeroshift or any clever dog ring set ups. Nor does the power remain uninterrupted (i.e. no full throttle full engine load shifts). In fact the shift is simply controlled by two selector drums, each operating alternate gears. Thus the engagement of the next gear can be progressing as the old gear is disengaged, this can occur as the engine\gearbox load is momentarily eased with a ignition\throttle cut and clutch disengaged. In a normal gearbox the adjoining gears are controlled by a single selector, thus the old gear has to be disengaged before the selector can engage the next gear. Reducing this undriven time is where the "seamless" element is brought in and saves time on shifts. This seamless shift is only possible with highly accurate hydraulics and electronics, one timing error and the gearbox goes kablam..! The SECU's introduction is believed to be responsible for some winter gearbox woes.

Interesting. Can’t say that i have fully understood your explanation, language barrier perhaps, will read from home again. Nevertheless I did come across similar answers to yours while looking for data, but I never found any references that would confirm/deny the system that is used, except that last f1racing pdf that I pasted. On the other hand, if zeroshift was used I would also expect their website to make a point out of that. Do you have any links/references to confirm the system you describe?
Many thanks!

LOL!

http://scarbsf1.com/transmissions.html

Scarbs, maybe you whould update your page with the seamless gearbox design?

Chris

[Conceptual]

Here is a discussion on seamless gearshifts from F1 Passionates forum

http://www.f1passionates.com/index.php/topic,421.0.html

This should help you Vamsikrishna

Isn't this getting a bit shameless? Or has everyone already moved to your new site?

Chris

[HKS]

Here is a discussion on seamless gearshifts from F1 Passionates forum

http://www.f1passionates.com/index.php/topic,421.0.html

This should help you Vamsikrishna

Isn't this getting a bit shameless? Or has everyone already moved to your new site?

Chris

Hey Chris, fine, no more links from F1P. Even if someone else would have posted anything there. I would quote it.

PS:Edited the typos

[Conceptual]

I personally don't mind, but I cannot see Tomba feeling good about putting all of the work into this site, just to have someone have a signature that promotes a rival site, and is constantly linking topics with the intent of bleeding traffic to it.

I have seen people banned on other sites for doing this this, and I feel that it is disrespectful to f1technical.net.

But in the end, it is not my site, so not my say.

Chris

[HKS]

I personally don't mind, but I cannot see Tomba feeling good about putting all of the work into this site, just to have someone have a signature that promotes a rival site, and is constantly linking topics with the intent of bleeding traffic to it.

I have seen people banned on other sites for doing this this, and I feel that it is disrespectful to f1technical.net.

But in the end, it is not my site, so not my say.

Chris

I have removed the signature as well.

I'm here not for promotion. I'm here coz I'm fond of this website. anyways I have even removed the link as well.