2009 design concepts

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Post Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:12 pm

rjsa wrote:I have been working on this model for some days, but I stuck with the 500mm center wing, the wing supports & the moveable part. Any oppinions on how it will be implemented?

Image

Image

My take is that teams are to try the only and last flipup, respecting the 75mm rule.

After ready this will be painted in rosso :wink:

TIA for any suggetstions,

rjsa


Very good work.

That is the kind of thing that I think could happen. We have been going for ever narrower cross sections in the nose of the car. They must be almost as narrow as they can be, allowing for the driver. It is possible that a wider front section on the top of the car will be used with the kind of undercut that we see on the sidepods being extended along the side of the front of the car towards the radiators.

I agree with Ogami that the scope of development is restricted by the regulations, but I do expect to see some exotic or unusual developments starting to appear at some time next year.
Williams and proud of it.
pgj
 
Joined: 22 Mar 2006

Post Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:20 pm

rjsa wrote:I have been working on this model for some days, but I stuck with the 500mm center wing, the wing supports & the moveable part. Any oppinions on how it will be implemented?

Image

Image

My take is that teams are to try the only and last flipup, respecting the 75mm rule.

After ready this will be painted in rosso :wink:

TIA for any suggetstions,

rjsa


The front wing rules are much more complex...and difficult to grasp. But the thing that returns is that the central part may be higher than the outer parts and also the chord is not constant, as you move to the endplates the allowed chord grows.

See the technical regulations topic for discussion of that.
Ogami musashi
 
Joined: 13 Jun 2007

Post Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:04 pm

Yes, thank you Ogami, I follow your posts with pleasure and interest, both here and elsewhere. I agree that technical regulations for things like front wings will be far more prescriptive next season. It is areas within the dimension limits that I expect to see some creativity.

Take side-pods as an example. When the Coke Bottle shape first came into F1, the side-pods were nothing more than slabs with the edges taken off. Over time we have seen them become more sculpted and undercut so that they contribute to the overall aerodynamic properties of the car in a positive way. I feel that there is scope for the front of the car to be developed in a similar way. Because there has been so much down force available from the front wing, the front of the car has been used to assist airflow over the extra aero-devices, that will be banned from next year, and offer as little resistance as possible. My guess is, and it is only a guess, that designers may develop the front of the car in a way that provides down force in addition to the car's wing surfaces. Increasing the width of the top of the nose, decreasing the width at the bottom of the nose and curving the profile between the two is just one idea that comes to mind. There are far more imaginative minds than mine in F1, I am sure that they will put their brainpower into trying to regain some of the lost down force, this is just my first cut attempt to second guess at it.
Williams and proud of it.
pgj
 
Joined: 22 Mar 2006

Post Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:15 am

Hello everybody,

I'm a long time reader of this forum, and this is my first contribution. I've read carefully the 2009 F1 regulations and applied the measures in a 3D model I've did last year for an advertising. It was done using coffee break times and a bit of after hours time too, so still needs some more refinements, but I think the general lines of the 2009 car are there.

From my point of view, the big front overhang allowed by the rules left the car a bit strange (and I avoid to stretch the car's nose to the maximum 1m20cm from the front axle as written in the rules), as the very tall and narrow rear wing. And I think most teams will adopt Ferrari's nose "hole". I'm sure (and I hope) that the F1 designers will come to better designs than this, and for 2011 these aero rules will be better.

http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=f2009visualxh4.jpg
smirkoff
 
Joined: 9 Aug 2008

Post Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:36 am

Thanks for the image, smirkoff :)

Looking at the cars, they really do look like a lower-class car (F3000 sort of). One thing to note on your image, according to Ogami, the front-wing will extend forward of the nose. I cannot confirm this as I haven't really had a good read of the regulations. Also, I think the teams wont have the front-wing quite as wide as you've made it, although you have followed the maximum allowed width.

I'm sure I'll grow to love the cars...I hope.
Powertrain Cooling Engineer
Scotracer
 
Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland, UK

Post Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:06 am

Scotracer wrote:Looking at the cars, they really do look like a lower-class car (F3000 sort of). One thing to note on your image, according to Ogami, the front-wing will extend forward of the nose. I cannot confirm this as I haven't really had a good read of the regulations. Also, I think the teams wont have the front-wing quite as wide as you've made it, although you have followed the maximum allowed width.


Thanks, Scotracer,

From what I've read in the rules, the forward limit of the front wing is 1 meter forward of the front axle, but the allowed front overhang of the car is still the same 1m20cm of the current rules, so it will be the choice of the teams to position the nose relatively to the wing. I would prefer a shorter nose, for sure, if only for visual harmony of the car. I've tried to stick to the limits of the measures just to have an idea of what is wanted by the rules.

But I'm a bit concerned that the GP2 cars will look a bit better than their supposedly big brothers... I bet in the lateral thinking of the designers to come with something MUCH better than this.
smirkoff
 
Joined: 9 Aug 2008

Post Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:45 am

Yes, one can only hope that the designers manage to come up with some very exotic designs. I however like the lack of ramp wings in front of the rear-wheels so you can see how coke-bottle shaped the cars really are. Extraordinary!

GP2 cars right now almost look more purposeful than F1 but what annoys me is that F1 cars will no longer produce the most downforce of any racer - the now-defunct DP01 Panoz chassis will develop more and GP2 cars probably wont be far behind.
Powertrain Cooling Engineer
Scotracer
 
Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland, UK

Post Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:02 am

I don't think it will look too much like the old Arrows.

The A1 was a ground effect car, and the A2 was a failure since it's underbody channels were so big the engine was raised, and the car suffered from massive porpoising.

If the car had the 'lowdownness' of a current F1, I think the wings are closeish.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute
Giblet
 
Joined: 19 Mar 2007
Location: Downtown Canada

Post Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:27 am

Nice work smirkoff.
Williams and proud of it.
pgj
 
Joined: 22 Mar 2006

Post Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:20 pm

Now i understand that everything on an F1 car has a purpose and what i'm about to say has probably already been thrown out as a terrible idea years ago. BUT I have never understood why there is such a flat area next to the vent for the radiator.

Surely they could round that off quite considerably. I'm going to assume that it can't be totally done away with due to radiator taking up a certain amount of space.

The other thing im not so sure on is the coke bottle. Although I personally think it looks great would it not be better to make it more of a natural (rear half) teardrop shape? It would mean you could probably cover up those suspension arms a little better..

Great work btw Smirkoff, i think thats the first rendering i've seen thats made me think "meh, the new shape isn't as bad i'd been lead to belive" :P
______________________________________
greenpower dude reloaded
 
Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Location: Portsmouth, UK

Post Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:31 pm

Oh and one more thing.. :P

Without having read the rules (shame on me) whats the possibility of of the teams using the front wing as it now extends as far as the front wheels a bit so say some sort of shield just to keep the air off the best part of the front edge?

To give some of you an idea as to how lossy wheels can be. In the racing series i race in one team made one modification to they're car between races by covering three of they're wheels (most of us don't have the man power to get everything done in time for a race) and reported a 4 mph increase in speed which mean't that they could reach 31mph instead of 27.

So far we've hit 39.7 without a rear end :D

and the science behind it is that as the top of the wheel is effectively going twice the speed it has 4 times the drag and therefore needs 8times the power to overcome said drag.

i dunno just a thought..
______________________________________
greenpower dude reloaded
 
Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Location: Portsmouth, UK

Post Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:26 pm

There's a restriction on the hight of the front wing and on the size of endplates.
However, for sure teams will try to lessen the darg front wheel generates by any means. i think that probably outer part of profiles of the wing would be with the maximum avaible AOA, whilw the inner would be flatter.
timbo
 
Joined: 22 Oct 2007

Post Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:40 pm

I've been reading the rules again... maybe this helps:




3.7.5 The bodywork ahead of the front wheel centre line and between 750mm and 840mm from the car centre line must have a projected area of no less than 95,000mm² in side view.

As of 2008, in side view, the endplate can be as big as 110,000mm² (550*200, or 350-900mm ahead of the front wheel center line and 150-350mm high).

According to 2009 rules, the endplate is located between 75-275mm high and 450-1000mm ahead of the front wheel center line, which results in the same 550*220=110,000m². Endplate's size is not reduced in comparison to 2008. Actually, its area has to be >=95,000mm² out of 110,000mm²!

Furthermore, article 3.7.5 above gives the endplate a specific location beteween 750 and 840mm from the car center line.




3.7.6 Bodywork ahead of the front wheel centre line and between 840mm and 900mm from the car centre line must have a projected area of no less than 28,000mm² in plan view. Furthermore, when viewed from underneath, the bodywork in this area must form one continuous surface which may not be more than 100mm above the reference plane.

This is the edge of the front wing (flips, vortex generators and stuff like that)

In plan view, the area is 33,000mm² and must have 28,000mm² of bodywork in it.

Then, when viewed from underneath, bodywork in this area cannot be higher than 100m, which means it can be no more than 25mm high if we consider the bottom of the endplate as a "reference plane". This can't be anything but the bernoulli thing I think, just like current cars.



Here's a quick sketch:

Image

front wheel center line in orange
3.7.6 in red
3.7.5 in green
adjustable flap in blue
mariof1
 
Joined: 10 Feb 2008

Post Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:29 pm

Great work mariof1 , =D>

Could it be possible to post an analogous sketch for the rear wing as well :?: :?:

Images are always better than words :wink:
Future is like walking into past......

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bar555
 
Joined: 8 Aug 2007
Location: Greece - Athens

Post Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:34 pm

Ok, this is the rear wing:




Image
Rear or front view

Maximum of two elements in the green area and one in the blue area. Orange is the maximum area for endplates. Bodywork is also permitted in the light green area.



Image
Plan view

Bodywork in the light green area must be between 200 and 400mm above the reference plane




Image
Side view

There must be 330,000mm² of bodywork in the orange area (total is 390,000mm²)
mariof1
 
Joined: 10 Feb 2008

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