"Golden Age" of drivers.

[Conceptual]

I would like to know how many passes (specific number) that you think should happen each race?

I see quite a few passes on track every race. I have no problem with passing as much as I have a problem with the fact that there is ONLY one racing line around the track. At that point, the only way to pass is to slam the door on someone, and push them off the line.

Now if the cars were 4WD, and the front tyres could be independently "triggered" from the steering wheel. there could be near infinite lines around the track that are fast, and could make more overtaking possible. Not only that, the loss of grooved tyres next year should reduce the amount of marbles on track by lessening the edges on the tyre that can start the graining...

Anyways, gcdugas, Alonso won this GP, much against your earlier posts about his inability to even score points, so what is your issue?

I believe that this is the best lineup of drivers that I have seen so far. This is ALSO the most competitive multi-team lineup that I have seen as well.

Overtaking is NOT everything. Overtaking does NOT define a driver.

By your logic gcdugas, if a driver wins 18 races in a season from pole, he is not a good driver because he didnt overtake to win... Nevermind that he is on pole because he is a great driver.

Using overtaking as the only measurement in a sport that has little is utterly rediculous, and closed minded.

But you have already shown that with your posts, so I do not have to point out your bigotry on the subject, you have done very well pointing that out yourself.

[WhiteBlue]

Do you have any idea what are all these guys doing now? I really liked Pizzonia "the jungle boy"....

Pizzonia is driving somewhere in America last time I heard his name. I will never forget the youtube of him rolling a tintop in Barcelona or Jerez with a journo and a camera live on board. I think after this his F1 carreer went down the crapper. and of cause being beaten by Heidfeld.

[gcdugas]

I would like to know how many passes (specific number) that you think should happen each race?

Precisely 16.3

I see quite a few passes on track every race. I have no problem with passing as much as I have a problem with the fact that there is ONLY one racing line around the track. At that point, the only way to pass is to slam the door on someone, and push them off the line.

The problem is the over reliance upon aero grip vs mechanical grip. With the high front wing (it has been raised twice since 2002) the problem gets worse because the aero losses are greater as the "ground effects" become less. The GP2 cars don't suffer grip loss nearly as much as F1 cars. We need less wing and more tires (and real slicks are on the way!).

Anyways, gcdugas, Alonso won this GP, much against your earlier posts about his inability to even score points, so what is your issue?

Another SC lottery. Not much real overtaking either. But I guess that Vettel, Alonso, Nico, Lewis and Robert don't know what they are talking about because each said overtaking would be impossible.

I believe that this is the best lineup of drivers that I have seen so far. This is ALSO the most competitive multi-team lineup that I have seen as well.

Agree and it is great!

Overtaking is NOT everything. Overtaking does NOT define a driver.

By your logic gcdugas, if a driver wins 18 races in a season from pole, he is not a good driver because he didnt overtake to win... Nevermind that he is on pole because he is a great driver.

Using overtaking as the only measurement in a sport that has little is utterly rediculous, and closed minded.

Rossi won from pole but in Moto-GP they always have a race. That's the difference. F1 just has too many processionals. Right now we have Monaco, Hungary, Valencia and this track where it is nearly impossible to overtake. Get rid of them all or change the aero and lets see some racing. Overtaking is not the only criteria. As you all well know I want to open up the rules, get rid of the std. ECU, engine freeze etc. I also appreciate the technical aspect of F1 racing. And I hate the political bias so often displayed. I just want to see pure sport and spectacle as much as possible.

But you have already shown that with your posts, so I do not have to point out your bigotry on the subject, you have done very well pointing that out yourself.

Bigotry? Isn't that a bit personal? Do you really need to stoop to personal attacks? Can't you just say you disagree and explain why?

[Chaparral]

If you want to see real racing go watch any national Formula Ford series - lots of slipstreaming and edge of the seat passes - some of the best racing Ive seen consistently over the years - karting the same.

[monkeyboy1976]

Not sure if anyone has seen this, but there is some regulary updated overtaking stat analysis done here:-
http://www.fotovallescrivia.it/public/news/rec.autos.sport.f1.moderated/2761--Delayed--Overtaking-Statistics-%2014-Monza.htm

Some other stats also on this site which are interesting.

Latest overtaking data overview (shamelessly cut and pasted)

Grand Prix     2008 '07 '06 '05 '04 '03 '02 '01 '00 '99 Total  Avg.
===================================================================
 1. Australia    11  11  23   5   9  38  19  18  13  41   198  18.4
 2. Malaysia     11  12  16   7  20  16  27  47  31  11   199  19.8
 3. Bahrain      14  20  39  14  15  --  --  --  --  --   102  20.4
 4. Spain         3   5   7   3   7  19  10  10   4   4   120  10.0
 5. Turkey       11  15  25  30  --  --  --  --  --  --    81  20.2
 6. Monaco       21   2  19  10   5   0   9   6   2   5    83   7.5
 7. Canada       17  21   9  12  19   8  15  13  14  14   174  14.5
 8. France        9   6   5   5  14  12   3   8  17  43   146  12.2
 9. Britain      44  16   6   8  11  49  47   7   8  13   260  21.7
10. Germany      25  --  21   9  29  14  25  15  42  16   220  20.0
11. Hungary       3   5  32  12   6  25   1   5  10   7   145  12.1
12. Europe-3      4  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --     4   4.0
13. Belgium      29  15  --  28  22  --   5   8  16  15   200  20.0
14. Italy        33  10  12  14  38   5  20  19  18  14   215  17.9
15. Singapore    ..  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --     -   ---
16. Japan-2      ..  46  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --    46  46.0
17. China        ..  40  51  20  17  --  --  --  --  --   128  32.0
18. Brazil       ..  20  18   6  41  48  30  26  22  27   274  24.9
-------------------------------------------------------------------
--  Austria      --  --  --  --  --  20  18  17  20  30   155  22.1
--  Europe-2     --  18  13  24  11   8  27   7  28  33   186  16.9
--  Japan-1      --  --  13  12  21  20   2  17   8   4   125  12.5
--  San Marino   --  --   4   7   6   4   6  13   7  11    71   7.1
--  USA          --  14   5   0  16  36  21  21  51   -   164  20.5
-------------------------------------------------------------------
    Totals      235 276 318 226 307 322 285 257 311 288  3397  16.8
    No. GP       14  17  18  19  18  16  17  17  17  16   202
    Race Avg.    17  16  18  12  17  20  17  15  18  18    17

[donskar]

monkeyboy - Thanks. Good stuff.

However, and I address this to others as well as to you, I don't think the issue is overtaking per se. IMHO we are not concerned with the 15th place car passing the 14th, or with the leader lapping tail-enders.

I love F1 as is. I have some mech engin background and some experience behind the wheel of sundry race cars, so I do appreciate the technology and the driving skill involved. Both are nearly incomprehensibly advanced. But I also see room for improvement. What is most lacking, IMHO, is races decided by passing on the track. TV cameras, corporate big wigs, average fans, beautiful people, and - I think - most of us look to the front of the field more than anywhere else. And it is at the front where we rarely see any passing for position.

Several of you have awesome ability (and free time!?) to dig up statistics. I'd love to see:
1) How many races are won by the pole sitter (and/or the outside front row driver)without ever having to pass anyone on the track (as opposed to in the pits)?
2) How many F1 winners (regardless of starting position) won the race by passing the former leader on the track?

IMHO, the basic raison d'etre of racing is to win.

[Conceptual]

But you have already shown that with your posts, so I do not have to point out your bigotry on the subject, you have done very well pointing that out yourself.

Bigotry? Isn't that a bit personal? Do you really need to stoop to personal attacks? Can't you just say you disagree and explain why?

Maybe when you understand what the word bigotry means, you can understand that pointing out where you are being a bigot in your posts, and it is not MY fault. Maybe if you would stop being a bigot in your posts, there would be no possible way to have it pointed out.

There was an aweful lot of overtaking in the Singapore GP. You are a bigot by denying that hard fact, and taking the word of drivers that it is "impossible", especially when the very drivers that you named made the passes during the GP.

And after re-watching the race, there were about 16 passes for position in the first 18 laps of this race. And by your denying that there "Is no overtaking in F1" especially after the graph on page 5 of this thread which clearly shows that there actually IS overtaking in F1, makes you a bigot once again.

Its not personal, its your trend.

[panchito401]

I think you've got to keep things in perspective. I honestly couldn't see mansell driving one of these cars nowadays... he'd be a fatass fish out of water. You think you'd see Fangios chain-smoking ass out here? No way.

For those in the states (and maybe on the other side of the pond)... its like Magic Johnson and the shift to Michael Jordan. It's a different era, different time and different game.

For me, excitement is the key, and nothing I've ever watched excited me like watching Senna in an inferior car challenge for poles, or Schumacher stuck in 5th gear for half a race and still manage 2nd (or third maybe?) Just waiting for that goddamn Williams-Renualt FW-16B to finally goddamn hand grenade at one --- race and it never happened. Car 0 won every time.

Now I watch hamilton like i watched senna. I thought that raikkonen was going to be the prost, but hes not as icy as prost was. (althbough raikkonen sucks in the rain like prost did!) I thought massa could be like schumacher in the ferrari. time will tell. but its all different. I love it.

and in ten years... hopefully my kid is kicking ass. in a williams of course.

conceptual> you've never seen a red sox - yankees playoff game, have you? that is --- hate.

[wilson]

Alonso already proven fact that he is a champion material
Raikkonen also proven that in 2007.
Vettel's nickname "Baby Schumi" suits him well, he is living up to it.
Hamilton's a great driver and he is certainly the world champion this year, but his on-track attitude is disgusting....
Rosberg is a great driver, just didn't have the car he needed.

[Conceptual]

conceptual> you've never seen a red sox - yankees playoff game, have you? that is f*cking hate.

Actually, I have seen those games. And I am ashamed of their behavior to be honest. It is rather disturbing to believe that someone's self esteem is so low that they must latch on to a professional sports team to feel good about themselves.

But that tends to be an American trait in general, and much the reason why Americans are not highly viewed throughout the world.

And the poster talking about Alonso, Kimi, and Vettel. I tend to agree, but lets not coronate Lewis until after Brazil. I would hate to see YOUR self esteem go the way of the Yankee fans....

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, Conceptual, I'm a fan of Santa Fe F.C. (Last national championship: 1976, Most famous record of the team: they received the fastest goal in the history of football, Most repeated joke: - "Daddy, daddy, what's a championship final?" - "I don't know, son. I'm a Santa Fe fan").

I go the other way around: my self esteem is so high...

Finally, I think nobody in the world despise americans. It's simpler: some people doesn't like the current government (well, "current" since 1930 or so ).

[Conceptual]

Well, Conceptual, I'm a fan of Santa Fe F.C. (Last national championship: 1976, Most famous record of the team: they received the fastest goal in the history of football, Most repeated joke: - "Daddy, daddy, what's a championship final?" - "I don't know, son. I'm a Santa Fe fan").

I go the other way around: my self esteem is so high...

Finally, I think nobody in the world despise americans. It's simpler: some people doesn't like the current government (well, "current" since 1930 or so ).

Ciro,

Good reading here about the current state of things: www.campaignforliberty.com

It isnt a joke, it was started by a ranking member of our Congress to try and sort out the crap that we live in.

My largest worry is that after this financial fiasco, our congress is trying to pass a bill that makes the taxpayers buy all of the junk investments of the banks, just so our economy doesnt crash. What they neglect to tell anyone however, is that the financial institutions around the world felt the shock of the American Dollar, and are going to reject it to protect their own financial systems.

Thus, the American Dollar that is only valued because of the OPEC nations only accepting USD for oil (well, Iraq stopped, and we killed them for it).

Our country is going to crash, but We the People will survive, it will be the banks and corporations that die, and to me, that is not a bad thing at all. Especially since it was their lobbyist dollars that caused this "brilliant" situation from the moment FDR broke the value of the USD from gold.

Maybe in a post-socialist America we can get our USGP back!

[donskar]

Hey, conceptual, what is it - toothache? hangover?

Actually, I have seen those games. And I am ashamed of their behavior to be honest. It is rather disturbing to believe that someone's self esteem is so low that they must latch on to a professional sports team to feel good about themselves.

So all fans of baseball, soccer, rugby, basketball, etc are afflicted with low self-esteem? Hmmm. How about enthusiastic fans of F1 and/or specific drivers?

But that tends to be an American trait in general, and much the reason why Americans are not highly viewed throughout the world.

Hmmmm . . . I seem to recall soccer fans so crazy about their teams that they literally killed each other . . . in Europe, wasn't it? And fans of a soccer team - a UK team (?) banned from attending cretain games?

"American trait in general." I'd say that's a gross generalization, in general. Calm down. True, Americans are NOT held in the highest regard in many countries, but I don't think that attitude has anything to do with baseball. One last point: aren't you saying that Americans "are not highly viewed throughout the world" because their "self esteem is so low?"

Now I've got a headache.