RENAULT driver line-up 2009

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.

Post Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:07 pm

Apologize for starting the whole "rain" discussion, but that was not my intent! I just said one should not attribute a WDC on one factor ONLY (ie tires, engine, weather or whatever).
I guess a good reason for keeping Piquet might be the huge Brazilian market? Of course they could have signed up Rubens instead but he probably would have been a bit more expensive. They wouldn't need a Frenchman as Renault itself is French, the same way Ferrari would not need an Italian driver (Valentino Rossi anyone? -sigh-). They wouldn't need another rookie, as someone else stated earlier, as they would be starting from zero again. They wouldn't need an established driver because they already have Alonso!
Still, if I was Flavio, I guess I would have gone for someone else. But I'm not, and I guess he knows better..
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. H.P.Lovecraft
andartop
 
Joined: 8 Jun 2008
Location: London, UK

Post Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:12 am

ISLAMATRON wrote:My reason is that Michilen is no longer in F1 and to me that is the only reason Alonso won his 2 titles. The Michilins were cleary better than the Bridgestones... to me Alonso was not the WDC he was the world Michilin drivers championship. Tires are by far the biggest performance difference in racing and Michilen had a much better product on the track.

2007, he proved he couldnt beat a rookie Hamilton in the same car, and HAmilton has only gotten better. Renault will never have a hug advantage as they did with the Michilen tires so I dont see Alonso winning anymore titles for the forseeable future. Furthermore I see Ferrari being more interested in Vettle than Alonso, So Alonso is effectively stuck at Renault.


While I rate Alonso higher than you do, I was wondering about how evenly you spread your equipment bias in deciding the WDC. Does Schumi deserve the 2002 WDC (every finish a podium) because of a car that was 0.8 sec a lap faster? How about 2001 when the equipment edge was "only" 0.6 sec a lap. Forget about 2004 when the Ferrari was arguably more than a second faster as evidenced by the race at Monza when Ferrari were caught out on the back foot of their pit strategy (due to rain) and Button's Honda was miles ahead. Ferrari suddenly had "another engine map" that enabled them to gain almost 1.8 seconds a lap, The F2004 was so far ahead that they could sandbag almost a full second a lap. Did that Championship count for Schumi? How about Mansell's 1992 crown and Prost's 1993 crown. What about Hill's 1996 crown and JV's 1997 crown. They had huge equipment advantages For that matter Mika's 1998 WDC started with a 1.2 second equipment advantage in the early races because of the B'Stones over Goodyear. Were Mac's 1988 and 1989 championships deserved or was the car so much better that another deserved the crown over Senna and Prost those years?

Where does your logic begin and where does it end?
Innovation over refinement is the prefered path to performance. -- Get rid of the dopey regs in F1
gcdugas
 
Joined: 19 Sep 2006

Post Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:54 am

gcdugas wrote:While I rate Alonso higher than you do, I was wondering about how evenly you spread your equipment bias in deciding the WDC. Does Schumi deserve the 2002 WDC (every finish a podium) because of a car that was 0.8 sec a lap faster? How about 2001 when the equipment edge was "only" 0.6 sec a lap. Forget about 2004 when the Ferrari was arguably more than a second faster as evidenced by the race at Monza when Ferrari were caught out on the back foot of their pit strategy (due to rain) and Button's Honda was miles ahead. Ferrari suddenly had "another engine map" that enabled them to gain almost 1.8 seconds a lap, The F2004 was so far ahead that they could sandbag almost a full second a lap. Did that Championship count for Schumi? How about Mansell's 1992 crown and Prost's 1993 crown. What about Hill's 1996 crown and JV's 1997 crown. They had huge equipment advantages For that matter Mika's 1998 WDC started with a 1.2 second equipment advantage in the early races because of the B'Stones over Goodyear. Were Mac's 1988 and 1989 championships deserved or was the car so much better that another deserved the crown over Senna and Prost those years?

Where does your logic begin and where does it end?


I never said he didnt earn or deserve the title, I merely stated why I think he won those 2 years rather than last year(versus a rookie teammate) or any future years to come. The WDC has never been about who is the best driver, it is about the best driver in the best equipment, with the best strategy... and some "luck". I currently rank Alonso amoung the top 5 F1 active drivers, possibly higher, top 3 maybe... to me thats pretty high, just not at the top.
ISLAMATRON
 
Joined: 1 Oct 2008

Post Fri Nov 07, 2008 6:48 am

Conceptual wrote:
ISLAMATRON wrote:


Wow it seems conceptual is an imbecile no matter what thread you read" I wanted to check that post about KERS and there he is ranting & raving again, calling people names... incredible.


Yes, yes. I am a big jerk because I don't spend 3 hours carefully wording my posts so there is no way to misinterperet what I am saying, and I fire back when misinterperetation happens anyways.

I believe that I left these boards for a while following that exchange. I was out of line with some of my language I admit, and it ended up being settled via PM.

Anyways, so Torotrak is ran by ex-Renault people, but they are not working with Renault? Why does that not make any sense?


Dudes... I only posted that link cuz I remembered it and he was asking.

This ISLAMATRON person I have been watching from a far and not getting involved, and I am not now. As an observer, however involving that may be, this reminds me of P.O.L..

We have for the most part been discussing F1 for ages, and while everybody here has their own personal 'edge' it is their F1 knowledge that I am here to share with them and the other way around I'm sure as well. I could care less what is thought of me, and don't come here to prove points or see points proven.

Conflict however passionate has no place in discussions about a sport that we are all obviously passionate about.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute
Giblet
 
Joined: 19 Mar 2007
Location: Downtown Canada

Post Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:19 am

..oopsy
Last edited by WhiteBlue on Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
WhiteBlue
 
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Post Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:19 am

ISLAMATRON wrote:.... I currently rank Alonso amoung the top 5 F1 active drivers, possibly higher, top 3 maybe... to me thats pretty high, just not at the top.


if one looks at the off track qualities one is tempted to agree. Alonso is brilliant on track, no doubt about it. but he has shown a worrying tendency to mismanage his team relationship and to handle himself silly with the Spanish press. whenever a controversy exists you can bet he keeps his mouth shut on sunday in the press room. but on monday he shoots his mouth off with a Spanish press buddy. this wasn't only happening with McLaren. when he had his first stint with Renault he was making some ridiculous claims how Ferrari supported Michael 100% and Renault did not do the same for him. even if there was any substance to such a claim (which I do not believe) it is not very clever to make public complaints about it. you destroy the solidarity and trust that you urgently need to build up. he may have matured by now, but the damage is done. no top team wants to employ him.
Last edited by WhiteBlue on Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
WhiteBlue
 
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Post Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:24 am

Oh, c'mon why that kind of posts? I think you all have being dragged into "character analysis". I also think that this style of chatting contribute little to F1Technical.

If someone has a clue about what is happening at Renault, we're all ears.

Now I have to hear that Piquet has been chosen because Alonso cannot stand a good driver by his side. Yeah, sure, he does not need any support to earn a WDC and Piquet is a bad driver.

OOT NOTE: Guys, do not worry about the recent "troubles". I hope we can announce some solution soon.

EDIT: I just erased most of this post. Thanks to Miguel and WB for his comments, down this thread, made before I came to my senses... The "troubles" are resolved now, we just want all of you to enjoy this site.
Ciro
Ciro Pabón
 
Joined: 10 May 2005

Post Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:04 am

Okay, this is another point of view about Piquet, let's see what's your opinion on this:

Piquet has been outqualified lately by about 2-3 tenths. When the R28 was able to get 7th to 10th, this meant not only missing Q3, but being easily 6 positions behind your teammate. In order to compensate this, Piquet had to be fueled heavily. Some folks have noted how the R28 was a worse car on fuel than on fumes. Couple then a difficult car with lots of knife-racing (don't be fooled, people at the back of the grid race as hard as anybody) and you necessarily get involved in more incidents. Note how when Piquet has got into Q3 his race has gone so much better. He was pretty good in Hungary, and could have even got Kimi in Fuji had he not gone out for a trip. He was also fast in France and his rain-pace in Silverstone was also fine. Let's not forget Germany, although I'm not sure he could have beat Alonso without the safety car.

I believe that Piquet is able to mantain a good pace with a heavy car. It's also possible that Renault engineers trust him to shave a couple of tenths off his qualifying performance. If next year's car is easier to drive (it should! slicks plus less small apendices should naturaly produce this!), Nelson could develop into a good solid driver, although probably not stellar.
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr
Miguel
 
Joined: 17 Apr 2008
Location: San Sebastian (Spain)

Post Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:42 pm

So you are passionate about Alonso, Ciro. =D> =D> =D> Well, we knew this before and it is perfectly valid to take your point of view. On the other hand I fail to see your points scoring good as they usually do when you argue about numbers.

You believe that Renault can be called a top team? In my view they are not and not very likely to make it into that elite circle in the next year. A top team is one that drivers think may be fighting for championships next year or that is in the fight in the running season. In my view McMerc and Ferrari certainly fit that bill. It takes some speculation to believe BMW's self declared target to be in that elite club next year. I happen to believe that they can do it. They have thrown a lot of resources at next years car to the detriment of their performance in the last races as you remarked.

I have not heared that Renault even aim to be in the championship fight next year, but that may be due to the fact that I don't read much about them in the news. They have certainly done their politicking well enough to receive a nice horse power gift from the FiA. But will that be enough to be competitive next year? And will drivers believe that they will be competitive? Some questionmarks remain when you compare for instance their published development progress on KERS. They rely on Magneti Marelli to get it right and have no chance to get a test on track in the next two months while BMW and Merc have already track tested some of their equipment.

So by common standards (constructor points and known development progress) I would see the likelyhood of Renault beating BMW next year as dubious. They also don't seem to attract a ton of future champions to their ranks. While many people think that Kubica is championship material Piquet would get a good laugh if he would claim that now.

Based on that bit of analysis let us now go back to the question of Alonso's attractiveness for top teams. He will never again drive for McLaren, that much is clear as long as the company is owned by Mr. Dennis and they have Hamilton. As the Italian duke said so logically why should a team with a top class driver employ Alonso? It would be detrimental as we have seen in 2007. Equally Ferrari seem to have come to the view that they can manage two drivers of the caliber of Kimi and Massa. Both have shown they can lead a champ fight and equally drive shot gun for the other guy without putting the company through the grinder of the world press or a WMSC trial for intellectual property theft.

Renault was very quick to release Kovalainen to McLaren last year and sign Piquet. Many people see the influence of Alonso behind this. Piquet suits his needs. This year they keep the line up as their lead driver decided to stay put. For me that decision of Alonso is prudent. If there isn't a position in a proven top team you better see to it that your own team makes some progress and don't damage yourself by speculative changes. Michael Schumacher is a good example of how a top class driver can push a mediocre team to get on a higher level. Ferrari 1995 were in a sorry kind of condition. Three years later they were fighting for championships. Alonso could do the same for Renault. 2009 will be year two of that exercise. I just don't think that they will arrive that quickly. It also fits with the perception that Alonso is prepared to desert them any minute Montezemolo waves a white flag or a cheque. So hopefully both Renault and Alonso will get their head down for some hard work and give us good racing to talk about for a change. For that to happen Alonso needs to show some loyalty and team spirit. And most important he should fix the image of a driver who just happens to drive for his team temporarily until something better comes along.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
WhiteBlue
 
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Post Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:58 pm

WhiteBlue wrote:You believe that Renault can be called a top team? In my view they are not and not very likely to make it into that elite circle in the next year. A top team is one that drivers think may be fighting for championships next year or that is in the fight in the running season. In my view McMerc and Ferrari certainly fit that bill. It takes some speculation to believe BMW's self declared target to be in that elite club next year. I happen to believe that they can do it. They have thrown a lot of resources at next years car to the detriment of their performance in the last races as you remarked.


According to your definition of top team:
Did you believ Renault was a Top Team at the end of 2004?
Did you believ Benetton was a Top Team at the end of 1993?
Did you believ McLaren was a Top Team at the end of 1997?

It seems you have no idea about what can a team do inside factory the whole year and develop during a summer.
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna
Belatti
 
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Argentina

Post Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:39 pm

Miguel wrote: Some folks have noted how the R28 was a worse car on fuel than on fumes.



I disagree with that sentence. It was the contrary I think. At least when the car became good late in the season. See the Q2 pace versus Race pace in the late races, the R28 seemed to be very stable in traction, and resonably stable under braking in the races, but on fumes it always felt too nervous and oversteery, a bit like the BMWs.

Agree with all the rest.
vyselegend
 
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Location: Paris, France

Post Sat Nov 08, 2008 7:01 am

Belatti wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:You believe that Renault can be called a top team? In my view they are not and not very likely to make it into that elite circle in the next year. A top team is one that drivers think may be fighting for championships next year or that is in the fight in the running season. In my view McMerc and Ferrari certainly fit that bill. It takes some speculation to believe BMW's self declared target to be in that elite club next year. I happen to believe that they can do it. They have thrown a lot of resources at next years car to the detriment of their performance in the last races as you remarked.


According to your definition of top team:
Did you believ Renault was a Top Team at the end of 2004?
Did you believ Benetton was a Top Team at the end of 1993?
Did you believ McLaren was a Top Team at the end of 1997?

It seems you have no idea about what can a team do inside factory the whole year and develop during a summer.


I consider this from a timely perspective. Things change a lot. You have to go by what you know. I agree that drivers often know more and still they get caught out. Your examples mention later top teams in their ascendents. There will alway be these kind of surprises. We could have something similar next year. but without a crystal ball one has to apply what information is available. You may have noticed that I have applied my view with a bit of caution. I just gave you my view of what I consider likely. You may share that or reject that at your pleasure.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
WhiteBlue
 
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Post Sat Nov 08, 2008 5:58 pm

I think youre forgetting the fact that the Renault had all sorts of "grey area" devices on it to make it perfore well... Mass Damper anyone???

Those systems are now banned, but Renault have this year shown, that a good development programme will hone and shape a car, and with Alonso, who is very hands on for development, is a unstopable team.

They will be hard to beat for 09, i also feel that the teams without KERS will have a advantage to start the year, as they wont have posible relyability problems later on in the early races, but those who dont have KERS on the start will get a cleaner start as they wont have that up to 40-45KG extra weight on them and they wont have to wait for the charge to kick in, gaining a extra .3 of a second extra speed build up.

It will be tough to call for 2009, but id give it till the start of the european season and youll be able to call it better then.
ESPImperium
 
Joined: 5 Apr 2008
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Post Sat Nov 08, 2008 6:48 pm

It's not extra weight, it is less ballast, but it will still have a negative effect.
ISLAMATRON
 
Joined: 1 Oct 2008

Post Sun Nov 09, 2008 2:41 am

ESPImperium wrote:I think youre forgetting the fact that the Renault had all sorts of "grey area" devices on it to make it perfore well... Mass Damper anyone???

Those systems are now banned, but Renault have this year shown, that a good development programme will hone and shape a car, and with Alonso, who is very hands on for development, is a unstopable team.

They will be hard to beat for 09, i also feel that the teams without KERS will have a advantage to start the year, as they wont have posible relyability problems later on in the early races, but those who dont have KERS on the start will get a cleaner start as they wont have that up to 40-45KG extra weight on them and they wont have to wait for the charge to kick in, gaining a extra .3 of a second extra speed build up.

It will be tough to call for 2009, but id give it till the start of the european season and youll be able to call it better then.



Are the flywheel KERS systems really 45kg? I think that the teams that start the year with that system will dominate the start of the race with their extra HP going into turn one...
Conceptual
 
Joined: 15 Nov 2007

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