Can someone tell me what is this car?

Please discuss here all your remarks and pose your questions about all racing series, except Formula One. Both technical and other questions about GP2, Touring cars, IRL, LMS, ...
User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Can someone tell me what is this car?

Post

timbo wrote:
the cars of that era were death traps. they lost 3 or 4 drivers world wide that year. that was just before carbon fiber monocoques were introduced on a wide scale. it took another 10 years to develop acceptable fuel tanks and front impact safety. look at the driver position.
Well, I agree, although 1982 was the year Villeneuve died and to me 1994 Williams FW15 was a death trap too. I was mostly comparing looks of the car of F1 and Indy of that era and of say 90's - in early 80's IndyCars to me looked as advanced as F1 (compare this car's sidepods to the next year Brabham), while later they started to look obsolete.
My impression was that F1 cars of that era were equally unsafe as the IndyCar variety. Considering the much bigger desaster potential of the ovals I'm amazed that the public shrugged off the fatal accidents so easily.

The similarity to F1 is striking. Vielleneuve's and Smiley's cars both desintegrated around them and left their broken bodies unprotected to the forces of inertia. Video and testimony of their first aid doctors is quite somber.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDSR6lHCcDg[/youtube]
While rushing to the car, I noticed small splotches of a peculiar gray substance marking a trail on the asphalt leading up to the driver. When I reached the car, I was shocked to see that Smiley's helmet was gone, along with the top of his skull. He had essentially been scalped by the debris fence. The material on the race track was most of his brain. His helmet, due to massive centrifugal force, was literally pulled from his head on impact...I rode to the care center with the body. On the way in I performed a cursory examination and realized that nearly every bone in his body was shattered. He had a gaping wound in his side that looked as if he had been attacked by a large shark. I had never seen such trauma."


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f213BRnj ... re=related[/youtube]
It was a take-off of extraordinary proportions. When a car spins and then hits a solid object; no loss of speed, no deceleration before impact. The Ferrari was airborne for over 100 yards before it slammed down nose-first onto the track with terrific force, buckling the front of the car into the cockpit. But the energy was scarcely dissipated and the accident went on and on. The car catapulted high into the air again and began a series of horrific cartwheels, at one point touching down on an earth bank some distance behind the guardrails on the right side of the entry to Terlamenbocht. On its return to the cirit the uncontrolled projectile very nearly landed on the slow-moving March of Jochen Mass that had triggered the accident. Mass was just able to swerve onto the grass to avoid being crushed.

The aluminium honeycomb chassis began to disintegrate; pieces flew in all directions. The seatbelts pulled out of their mountings. The driver, the seat and the steering wheel became detached and were hurled nearly 150 feet before ploughing through two layers of catch fencing on the left side of Terlamenbocht. Villeneuve's helmet flew off and rolled some distance from his body. Villeneuve was thrown from the car with his seat and seatbelt restraints still attached to him - all having been wrenched form the car - so high was the energy. Whether his neck fracture occurred when he left the car or landed near the catch fencing will never be known. A Belgian surgeon was on the scene in 35 seconds and began to try to revive Villeneuve's inert form with mouth-to-mouth resuscitation. He banged his chest and gave him heart massage.
At 1.52pm, alerted by the red flag, professor Sid Watkins, the FIA doctor, roared round in his Mercedes estate driven by Belgian Roland Bruynseraede who had to thread his way through the wreckage. Watkins could see it was bad. The scene of utter devastation bore awful testimony to the enormity of the crash. Bits and pieces of wreckage were strewn along the circuit for over 500 feet. There, in the middle of the track, was the totally destroyed chassis, shorn of all bodywork, with only the right rear wheel remaining and the entire front section ripped off at the point where the driver once sat.

Beyond the remains of the car, amid the tangled wire of the catch fencing on the outside of the corner, distraught track marshals stood around the medical personnel, wringing their hands in anguish. The Belgian surgeon bent over Villeneuve waved over to Watkins to help. He lay in catch fencing.

It had taken Watkins two minutes to get to the scene from the pits and Villeneuve had stopped breathing. He was intubated and the medics started ventilating him with an Ambu bag and oxygen. Watkins remembers: "He was quite flaccid and his pupils were dilated. Generally he looked otherwise uninjured, so we concluded he probably had a cervical spine fracture with high spinal cord injury. The strange feature was that his shoes and socks were off; and his feet quite bare. I looked up and found Pironi had stopped and was behind me, but after a few seconds he turned and left. Other help arrived and we set up intravenous drips. Gilles's pulse had been present throughout and had been quite strong, but the situation looked pretty bad."
Anybody who examines the grisley testimony will easily conclude that safety wasn't an issue at that time. With hindsight we can see how those events influenced some perceptive minds and how it got better over the years.

I believe we should never forget what our fathers learned and keep those lessons in mind. For me race car esthetics are always connected to the victories and the victims they produced.

John Barnard will remain the greatest race car designer for ever in my view for his life saving invention. Jackie Stewart for his pioneer stance on safety, Prof. Sid Watkins for his role as the greatest medical mind in F1, Max Mosley for pushing it through, Dr. Robert Hubbert for HANS and Michael Schumacher for reviving GPDA after Imola 1994 all made great contributions towards life saving in racing. I wish that F1 will continue in that spirit for a long time.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Miguel
Miguel
2
Joined: 17 Apr 2008, 11:36
Location: San Sebastian (Spain)

Re: Can someone tell me what is this car?

Post

I'd like to make just one point about the energy in Villeneuve's crash. When ETA murdered Carrero Blanco with a bomb under his car, he was also found without shoes. Keep in mind that bomb lifted a '70s US car about 6 stories high.
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr

duckrutt
duckrutt
0
Joined: 25 Jun 2008, 17:58

Re: Can someone tell me what is this car?

Post

Ciro Pabón wrote: Welcome by all means, Duckrutt, googler extraordinaire.
Long time lurker, had to join and add my .02 :) I have had that bookmark for ages, my boss is one of the biggest Gurney fans I've ever met. Heck we have a wall in the store lined with various pictures of Eagles and other cars Dan drove.

The 80's eagles may not have the 'beak' of the 60's cars but I've always liked the way they look. Not that I would want to drive one at speed in a crowd mind you.....


Ducky

Belatti
Belatti
33
Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

Re: Can someone tell me what is this car?

Post

Safety was not only due to cars design or materials. I think that Villeneuve´s or Senna´s accidents would not have happened in most of todays tracks.

Maybe in Melbourne, Montreal and Monaco being the exceptions, with barriers too close to the track, but as I said before in another thread, those tracks are exiting to watch good racing.
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

timbo
timbo
111
Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Can someone tell me what is this car?

Post

I think that today's trend of bringing back street-circuits may be dangerous.
Bridge section on Valencia track seems to me very dangerous if car gets thrown over the bridge columns.

User avatar
Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Can someone tell me what is this car?

Post

I agree with Belatti and Timbo. Actually, when I posted before, I wrote something really long and boring about how you don't change accident rates unless you change the road and how I do not see the radical differences between F1 cars safety measures and regular ones, but I thought that would be OOT... :)

What have really changed in the cars? What touts FIA about in its page about safety? Collapsible steer column, harder chassis and HANS. That's it.

The cars still fly when they make wheel contact, for heaven's sake. Tracks like Catalunya still have improvised barriers. Even NASCAR has aerodynamic devices designed to avoid that, FIA has not found what to do yet. Discussing the new Concorde agreement they are worried about the teams getting more money.... from racing fees they charge to track owners. Way to go.
Ciro

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Can someone tell me what is this car?

Post

Ciro Pabón wrote: What have really changed in the cars? What touts FIA about in its page about safety? Collapsible steer column, harder chassis and HANS. That's it.
with all due respect Ciro, you are a bit biased there. of course track safety plays a major role in keeping driver alive and unhurt but there was a lot more done to the cars and driver equipment than you want to see.
  • three upgrades in fuel tank safety
  • two upgrades in Helmet safety
  • three upgrades in cockpit design for driver protection incl. raised side walls, bigger mirrors, foam padding, extractable seats, wider cockpit openings
  • three front impact crash absortion upgrades
  • two or three side impact crash absorbtion upgrades
  • two rear crash absorbtion upgrades
  • mandatory data loggers for continuous crash research
  • tethered wheels with two upgrades of specification
  • rollhoop specification upgrade
  • various tighning of anti flex wing rules
  • external engine cut device for marshalls
  • speed limiter in the pit lane
  • in car flag signalling by lights
  • mandatory sling points at roll hoop for quick car removal
  • four power cuts to avoid dangerous cornering speeds
  • medical signal monitoring
  • precision GPS monitoring of vehicle positions
This much from the top of my head and there would be a lot more that I do not care to research at the moment in addition to the HANS and safety cell specifications that you mentioned.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

rjsa
rjsa
51
Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 03:01

Re: Can someone tell me what is this car?

Post

WhiteBlue wrote:
[*]three upgrades in cockpit design for driver protection incl. raised side walls, bigger mirrors, foam padding, extractable seats, wider cockpit openings
This one is a bit over the top, IMHO. The old static X dynamic security compromise.

Cockpit walls are too high and drivers have no peripheral vision this year. This is creating David Coulthard effect. Soon it will make a big mess.

User avatar
Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Can someone tell me what is this car?

Post

WhiteBlue wrote:with all due respect Ciro, you are a bit biased there...
That's not my opinion, it's a professional opinion, and a bitter and critic one. It's not cheap to improve roads, it's much cheaper (and profitable) to allege that it's enough to improve cars.

Most safety measures by FIA seem to me like safety belts in planes or filters in cigarrettes.

I repeat we should open a thread if the issue is of interest to someone, I'm not arguing about your points, I'm asking everybody to keep it on thread.
Ciro

Belatti
Belatti
33
Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

Re: Can someone tell me what is this car?

Post

Wow people, I love how a miscelaneous thread converted into a safety one :)

Many street accidents happen because of bad designed roads. For example, there is a highway entering Buenos Aires from the north that is famous to have a curve with negative banking. I can barely take that at 140kph with my car using the 5 lanes, but newbie truck drivers sh*ts on their pants when they reach there at 90kph for the first time with a 40 ton charged truck and traffic all arround. There were dozens of accidents there, nothing was done to correct the issue.

I´m interested in the opening of the thread, so anyone, go on!
Ciro Pabón wrote: harder chassis
=
WhiteBlue wrote:
  • three front impact crash absortion upgrades
  • two or three side impact crash absorbtion upgrades
  • two rear crash absorbtion upgrades
And BTW:
WhiteBlue wrote:four power cuts to avoid dangerous cornering speeds
Power "cutting" doesn´t avoid dangerous cornering speeds, Aero cutting does.
(please sory for being so pedantic :lol: )
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

timbo
timbo
111
Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Can someone tell me what is this car?

Post

I also would like to see thread on safety!
I think that some of the car upgrades (especially aero cutting) do not really work for safety. Say we reduce cornering speed by 30% so high speed corners taken with, say, 210 kph on apex would be taken at 140 is that automatically make a corner safe? That's rhetorics, but I believe that it is track safety where we have the biggest possibility for improve now. And it doesn't automatically cost more in perspective. There's info that Magny-Cours need $50 million for a massive revamp and who knows how many teams spent on adopting to all the aero changes? Thre's gotta be some points from TV revenue aimed on improving track safety. GPDA must decide what circuit needs that.

User avatar
Tifoso
0
Joined: 11 Feb 2007, 22:50

Re: Can someone tell me what is this car?

Post

Looking at the Nordschleife webcam I came across this rare car, I don't know what is it. Any guess?

Image

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Can someone tell me what is this car?

Post

Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)