Pirelli 2013

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turbof1
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Ganxxta wrote:
diffuser wrote:I believe that what was written was both red bull and Ferrari were told. They Claim that they weren't told that they could test with the 2013 car. They thought it would be another test with the 2011 car like the one they had done a couple of weeks before. To me the fact that Ferrari & Red Bull are ready to run a test with the 2013 Car tomorrow if asked is proof they didn't know.


That thing from Wolf about not being able to produce new parts in 10 days for the test. What does he take us for fools ? Like they don't have new parts in the pipe line? They've been accused of testing the new Gearbox casing that they brought to Monaco at Barcelona. So it isn't just test with the tires but just testing in general. If they did 200 laps at Barcelona, you how easy it is to test the same tire with different parts to give you accurate results? They may not of known if tyre-A was the 2014 tyre or if tyre-B was. They knew which ones were tyre-B and they knew ones were tyre-A. If they didn't know, I bet Nico And Lewis could tell you fairly quickly after a couple of runs with each.
If they were testing the Gearbox, they don't actually need to know anything about any tyre they used, they would have run a gearbox for 1000(!) km, so to test reliability, temperatures, shift timings etc. its more then enough time to get valuable data, regardless of used tyres.
They don't have to run a test for that. At their factory they have special testing benches where they run such things for hours, with the ability to shake and rock the table, putting the gearbox through very similar stresses they encounter on circuits.
It isn't a new gearbox btw, it's just a casing around it. More importantly, and the reason for the casing, is the new suspension pick-up points, which alter the geometry of the suspension. Unfortunaly, because they don't know which tyres they used and since they weren't the current ones, no data can be correlated back the current ones. The only thing they could have tested in that regard is the driveability of the car with its new geometry.
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marcush.
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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rest assured ,both Nico and Lewis knew exactly if they had a set of old friends or something completely different mounted on the cars when starting a flying lap. Drivers feel their tyres very well .

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Cam
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Another question, how long does it take Pirelli to adjust, make & ship new tyres? I wonder because Merc & Force India had problems in Barcelona. That seems not enough time to investigate, mix up compounds, make, ship etc. befor the test to fix the failures. it kind of feels like this test was arranged before the 2 rear failures. That in itself asks more questions.
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SectorOne
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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They have a backup factory in Romania (i think), i know it´s in east europe and that´s where the tires without any paint come from.

Possibly this is where the test tires are coming from for the Pirelli test in Barcelona.
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Cam
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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But how long does it take? Just investigating the failures and deciding a proper course of action could take weeks. Making multiple steel and Kevlar tyres with multiple compound permutations, all supposedly to combat the Barcelona failures, just seems too fast.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
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Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
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turbof1
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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marcush. wrote:rest assured ,both Nico and Lewis knew exactly if they had a set of old friends or something completely different mounted on the cars when starting a flying lap. Drivers feel their tyres very well .
Unfortunaly, you can't develop a car based on that. They knew they had something different beneath them, and could tell what the wear pattern was, but that's all to it. At best that gives an indication which way the engineers have to look, but that's an advantage inmediately whiped out at the next oppertunity all teams are able to test the tyres, and know which tyres they test.

Telling that something is different is the easy part. Telling where exactly the differences are, that's the issue.
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Cam
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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FoxHound wrote:Pirelli is allowed to request teams to assist with its development programme using a current spec car, a clause stating as much is written into its commercial contract with Formula One.
Let's look at this in the right timeline - this will give a global view to the issue.

On the 13th May, Hembrey doesn't want change, as he emphatically states, it will hand the championship to RedBull.
"What do you want?" he said. "We were asked to provide two to three stops and replicate Canada [2010].

"I know some of you would like us to do a one stop race where tyres are not a factor, and you can go back to processional racing where the qualifying position is the end position, if that is what you want in racing.

"What do you want us to do? You tell us, we will do it."

"It is a bit bizarre - unless you all want us to give tyres to Red Bull to help them win the championship, which appears to be the case. Source
On the 14th May, Hembrey knows full well the regs, he states them himself. He also states the sole reason for change is to "reduce pit stops" - key bit of information there.
Pirelli motorsport director Paul Hembery told AUTOSPORT: "We never intended for there to be four-stop races, so we are going to make construction changes to the tyres.

"We will be taking some of the design of the 2013 tyres, but also some of the elements of the 2011 and 2012 products that served us so well during that period.

"We want to go back to having two or three stop races."

"They have basically been stressing everything far too much, and probably we underestimated the performance," he said.

"We cannot test with the current cars, and all we have access to is a 2010 Renault that laps four or five seconds slower than the current F1 cars do on a Sunday. Source
Then on the same 14th of May, some kind soles pointed out this:
The queries focus on Article 12.6.3 of F1's technical regulations, which appears to prevent such modification to tyres unless there is unanimous support from the teams.

The rule states: "Tyre specifications will be determined by the FIA no later than 1 September of the previous season. Once determined in this way, the specification of the tyres will not be changed during the championship season without the agreement of all competing teams."

The only exception to the rule would be if there were genuine safety concerns that required an immediate change.
Hembrey on the same day said this:
"It's important to point out that these delaminations, which occur when the tread comes off, do not compromise the safety of the tyres."
Hembrey then on the same day contradicts himself regarding the effects of tyre changes:
"It has been amusing reading comments from some people suggesting that these changes are going to change the course of the world championship," he told AUTOSPORT. "That will not happen.
A statement countering this he made not 24 hours earlier.

20th May - The FIA confirm that the regs only allow tyre changes for safety reasons - somethign Hembrey has already stated is not an issue.
The FIA reject Pirelli's proposal to go back to last year's tyres - Another part of the rules, article 12.5.2, gives the FIA leeway to ask the tyre supplier to change the tyre specification if it proves to be "technically unsuitable", but the governing body does not consider this to apply in this case.
So there's nothing to change is there? So why is there still a test?

On the 24th Fernely says this:
Fernley said he understood Pirelli's desire to avoid further delaminations, but equally said it would be unfair to force through tweaks on safety grounds.

"It is more to do with making sure the image of Pirelli is protected - quite rightly going forward – because they don't want to see delaminating tyres," he said. "It is not a safety issue."
So he agrees, no safety issue - it's a branding issue! Ok, so why still test?

Skip to the 26th May, after the 'secret test' has been uncovered - Hembrey:
"It's completely regular in that we are allowed to do 1000 kilometre of tyre testing with any team," he said.

"In the World Rally Championship contract it's exactly the same. We can do it with a representative car.

"We've done it before with another team and we've asked another team to do some work as well." Source
Not the whole truth given was it? Ferrari tested with an old car and non current driver - as per the regs.

To back up what the FIA said:
"Within the contract Pirelli has with the FIA as single supplier, there is provision for them to carry out up to 1000km of testing with any team - provided every team is offered the opportunity to do so," said the statement.

"Pirelli and Mercedes-AMG were advised by the FIA that such a development test could be possible if carried out by Pirelli, as opposed to the team that would provide the car and driver, and that such tests would be conditional upon every team being given the same opportunity to test in order to ensure full sporting equity." Source
Hembrey then states publicly that the test was basically for 2014:
Hembery insisted that most of the work at the test was on developments for 2014, with only a small element of it devoted to work on the tweaks being planned for the Canadian Grand Prix.

"In reality we were looking at next year's solutions and trying a variety of different [things]," he said.

"It was 90 per cent for next year. We only changed [our plans for 2013 work] at the last minute."
Why the tweak at all - there is no safety issue!

Why the last minute reason to change the test purpose? Was this test with Merc not already pre-planned to address the failures? No. The 2013 failures were not a huge issue remember, because Hembrey himself states it's not a safety issue and the FIA has already said there's no reason to change. So why the last minute change? Why the test at all?

You don't have to see you've stepped in crap to know, you can smell it, and this whole thing smells to high horses.

Don't be too keen to trust Hembreys words - as you can see, his words change depending on the situation. Called me old fashioned, but that's not how you build trust. How can anyone trust anything Pirelli do or say going forwards? That is the real safety issue.
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Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
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diffuser
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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I just really dislike what Pirelli/Merc did this, I feel it's unsportsmen like. I dislike all the complaining by Red Bull. The tires are what they are for everyone, Get over it! The fact that you can't lap as quickly as Lotus and Ferrari on high speed circuits is just proof that their cars are faster with the given rules.

Red bull just seems to complain all the time. Sore winners. When they didn't run KERS, you'd often hear Vettl Complain that the other guys just pushed the button. Then there was the whole Diffuser mess in 2011. Last year was the one of the few exceptions when they just put their heads down and worked it out. Don't get me wrong, I like Adrian Newey. I even like it when talent like Newey gets spread around and not all pooled at Ferrari or McLaren. Makes for interesting racing. But the complaining or the politics, whatever you want to call, it pissed me off. Man up and shut up!!!

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Cam
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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diffuser wrote:I just really dislike what Pirelli/Merc did this, I feel it's unsportsmen like. I dislike all the complaining by Red Bull. The tires are what they are for everyone, Get over it! The fact that you can't lap as quickly as Lotus and Ferrari on high speed circuits is just proof that their cars are faster with the given rules.

Red bull just seems to complain all the time. Sore winners. When they didn't run KERS, you'd often hear Vettl Complain that the other guys just pushed the button. Then there was the whole Diffuser mess in 2011. Last year was the one of the few exceptions when they just put their heads down and worked it out. Don't get me wrong, I like Adrian Newey. I even like it when talent like Newey gets spread around and not all pooled at Ferrari or McLaren. Makes for interesting racing. But the complaining or the politics, whatever you want to call, it pissed me off. Man up and shut up!!!
You hate RedBull, we get that - but they're not the only ones complaining. And while you have a point that the tyres 'were' the same for everyone - that seems it is no longer the status quo. Taking away Mercs perceived advantage with this 'testing' incident, if 'new' compounds are introduced this year, then your argument is moot - as the cars will need further design changes to best make use of the new compounds - and one team may have already used those tyres. Some of these cars are carry over from 2012 and major changes simply are not possible under the regs. So it's conceivable that any mid year changes will favour one team or another - again. Hardly equitable - as the FIA state it should be.

Don't get hung up on who's complaining - look at why.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

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Re: Pirelli 2013

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banibhusan
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Cam wrote: Don't be too keen to trust Hembreys words - as you can see, his words change depending on the situation. Called me old fashioned, but that's not how you build trust. How can anyone trust anything Pirelli do or say going forwards? That is the real safety issue.
One thing I don't understand is, if the tyre test is allowed only in case of safety concerns and with unanimous approval of teams, then how can Pirelli test 2014 prototype compounds?

From Hembrey's comments its clear the test was more towards the development of 2014 compounds, which makes it a tyre development test instead of all the "safety issue" crap they are feeding the public.

I believe it would have made whole lot more sense if they simply asked all the teams to test with the current car for 3 days at Barcelona. I don't believe any single team has complete understanding of the tyres, including Lotus and Ferrari. And no matter how difficult it is for the teams, every single team would love to have an additional 3 days test in the name of "tyre test" to get even more mileage and track time.

It sounds strange when Pirelli claims that they sent letters to teams back in 2012 asking for a test and they are actually conducting it in 2013,i.e. almost after a year. Though it may have been for the same compounds. Also if Ferrari tested for Pirelli with the F10/F2011, then why didn't Pirelli convince Ferrari that a test with the F138 was possible. I don't believe Ferrari would have refrained from a 3 days test with a current car if the regs allowed it to be.

Richard
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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I wonder if the Pirelli/Merc test explains the appearance of this in Barcelona ...

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SectorOne
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Cam wrote:So why the last minute change? Why the test at all?
To get rid of delaminations, to test the new tires that won´t delaminate in the same fashion and test 2014 tires.
Which according to FIA they were allowed to do if they fullfilled the two criteria which right now is where it all hangs.

If there´s a dog buried somewhere FIA is equally part of it.


Quote from Stefano regarding their own test they did.
The tyres, the specification of the test, is something that Pirelli knows; not us."

- Domenicali.
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Cam
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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SectorOne wrote:
Cam wrote:So why the last minute change? Why the test at all?
To get rid of delaminations, to test the new tires that won´t delaminate in the same fashion and test 2014 tires.
Which according to FIA they were allowed to do if they fullfilled the two criteria which right now is where it all hangs.

If there´s a dog buried somewhere FIA is equally part of it.
Didn't the FIA stipulate any tyre changes could only occur for safety? Didn't the FIA also state the delaminations did not fall under a safety scenario?

Seems the FIA have actually been quite good here (much to my personal surprise as well).
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― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

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turbof1
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Re: Pirelli 2013

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Didn't the FIA stipulate any tyre changes could only occur for safety? Didn't the FIA also state the delaminations did not fall under a safety scenario?
As far as I know, they actually stated they encouraged a solution for the delaminations, implying they see it as a safety concern.
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