Ranting

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
manchild
manchild
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

Ranting

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Because of my respect to Tom’s peace keeping attempt I decided not to reply anymore in thread linked below.
viewtopic.php?t=2633&start=60

This is just my answer on Tom's reply.

I never had animosity against Ferrari but against cheaters. Those who cheat thumb down from me - simple as that. It is not my problems that fingers of all teams are pointed at Ferrari and Mosley for almost 10 years. Those who created the problems are the guilty party, not the ones who are pointing out when someone is cheating.

When it matters post-race checkups Ferrari wing didn’t pass any scrutiny dealing with flexibility except the scrutiny dealing with dimensions and position relative to the car (done after every race). Scrutinizing after the race isn’t including analysis if flexibility of wings is within allowed limits. That is why FIA actually never analyzed Ferrari’s wing or any other team wings. What ever they said it was just their opinion not announcement given after some detailed inspection of flexibility.

Such detailed inspections are only conducted after someone files an official protest and since that still didn’t h happen flexibility of Ferrari wings wasn’t officially tested by FIA. So, their current legality is based on personal opinion of certain FIA heads which is something many said they don’t like including me and that is politics. I’d like to see all wings in F1 analyzed by FIA stewards and an official piece of paper with results instead of war of words.

For those who think this is ranting please point out which thing in this post isn’t the truth.

Tp
Tp
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Joined: 02 Mar 2006, 15:52
Location: UK

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What I don't understand is that you seem to have a strong belief that Ferrari has indeed cheated, so why hasn't any teams officially protested, as the designers/engineers know a hell a lot more on the technical side of F1 than pretty much everyone on this Forum. In fact when has any team protested in the past 7yrs, during Ferrari's dominance?

manchild
manchild
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

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I agree with you. I also find it strange why other teams aren't potesting since they are talking so much about illegailty.

Perhaps we would understand situation better if we knew exact procedure and amount of bail that must be payed in advance. Perhaps the bail is so hight that no team dares to risk reducing their budget without being absolutely sure that some team is cheating? Couldn't find a thing about that in FIA sporting regs. Anyone with info about this?

From the previous years I remumber only teams being caught by stewards (without inspection following the protest) - Honda 2005 (fuel tank), than Williams several years ago (brake ducts) and Ferrari (barge boards). I'm sure these not all cases but only those I can remember right now.

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wazojugs
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006, 18:53
Location: UK

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Tp wrote:In fact when has any team protested in the past 7yrs, during Ferrari's dominance?
What have you been watching!

Manchild states that he has no animosity towards Ferrari fine, but I do. I have always hated Ferrari for they way they go about racing be it F1 or sports car racing as well as building cars and the large chip on the shoulder.

Ferarri always thought that he was the best (no problem in that) but he just has to rub people noses into it. i.e. telling Mr Lamborghini that he couldn't build a car faster than his Ferrari (Lambo made tractors at the time), what did Mr Lamborghini do... he built a faster car! Then we have enzo mouthing off that no car could beat his around the targa florina, who turned up with a lower powered car and beat him...Porsche hence the name targa in there car brand names. Plus Porse always caned them in sport car racing :lol:

Then we have Ferrari throwing dummy out of the pram when they won nothing between 1980-2000 stating that they are the purists and teams that build a chassis and strap and engine to it are not proper teams.


There we go my piece over and done with, if you think I am wrong please comment

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Tom
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Joined: 13 Jan 2006, 00:24
Location: Bicester

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Thank you Manchild and everyone else who has stopped that tediouse thread. I have great respect for you all and the fact you stopped immediattly after my piece only increases it.

No team has a clean record, all have been through some disagreement with the rules and this happens to be a big one which the FIA seems to have done little about, in which all teams shold get away with it.

Thanks all.

Tom.

manchild
manchild
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

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Wazo, I think you've missunderstood protest as used by Tp and me. We were not talking about protests in a form of statements to the press about suspicions but about official protests on technical legality of the car. That is procedure known in all FIA-based championships that has deadline, bail and detail analysis of suspicios part of the car as universal forms.

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wazojugs
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006, 18:53
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I just wanted to have a rant

manchild
manchild
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:lol:

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wazojugs
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006, 18:53
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feel better now... many thanks

Tp
Tp
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About Ferrari road cars, well put it this way, I'd rather have a Ferrari than a Renault. :lol:

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Tom
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Joined: 13 Jan 2006, 00:24
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I reakon Renault are marginally more reliable. Italian cars have a knack for breaking down, similar to British cars having a knack for falling to pieces due to rust.

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Ranting

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manchild wrote:Because of my respect to Tom’s peace keeping attempt I decided not to reply anymore in thread linked below.
viewtopic.php?t=2633&start=60.
Manchild, could you please correct the link? It says "No post for this thread". I suppose is the thread about flexi-wings. But the question is:

What did Tom say to make you stop ranting about Ferrari? :wink: I dare to say that we all want to know (just in case we need this kind of resource and is not based on Tom's particular abilities). :D

Again, I am not Ferrari fan. But I also have a strong sense of justice.

Now, about the thread, if FIA hasn't tested any wings, why do you conclude Ferrari is guilt of cheating?

For example, FIA hasn't conducted tests, for, let´s say, global warming caused by F1 engines. I cannot see how you could conclude this is proof that global warming is caused by Ferrari.

My latin education teaches me that is the duty of the designer to test the limits of rules. I repeat what Frank Williams (at WilliamsF1.com) says about rule makers and engineers: he calls them "intellectual adversaries".

The rules about wings are clear: you have to pass a static test and you have to fix the wings to the chassis. The part about mobil aerodynamic parts was devised to avoid things like ailerons. That's it.

Another point is that the technical decissions are the lowest in any organization. A thesis I read many years ago taught me that;

"... when you want to make a bridge, you call an engineer. When you want to make many bridges, you need an economist, because you want to optimize your invest. If you build a bridge in the real world, you need a lawyer, because long before construction begins, you are going to be sued. Finally, if you build bridges for people, you need a politician to state clearly which is the long term policy of bridge building." The politic decission takes precedence over the legal, this over the economic and the engineer's decission is the less important. "Politics is the art of negotiation". An engineer cannot negotiate (try to negotiate a chassis thickness with an engineer: he will stare at you).

Finally, you have a big task ahead. As they say in Colombia: "Pick well your enemies. Friends come and go, but enemies are for life".

Having said that, I know I am not going to change your point of view. That is why we like you! Don't change, man. :wink:
Ciro

West
West
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Joined: 07 Jan 2004, 00:42
Location: San Diego, CA

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I would rather have a Renault for a daily driver than a Ferrari, and Renaults are unavailable in the States. I don't need to stroke my ego everyday.

My friend's friends, who are very affluent, always buy high-end Porsches and Mercedes, but can't drive worth sh*t. He was telling me about how one guy went from CLK500 to E55 to a Carrera just to beat my other friend, who drives a Lexus IS300. An AUTOMATIC LEXUS. What kind of idiot loses to an automatic Lexus (barely modified) with a car with at least 75 more HP?

By the way, that was all just to impress a girl. How pathetic.



I enjoyed ur ran wazo, never knew about Ferrari that way.
Bring back wider rear wings, V10s, and tobacco advertisements

dumrick
dumrick
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Joined: 19 Jan 2004, 13:36
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Ok, I decided to come out of the closet... I hate Ferrari, too!

All important innovations in F1 came from elsewhere and Ferrari always had a very conservative approach. Enzo always defended the sillyest things like front-engined sports cars ("the horses pull the wagon, not the other way around"), like what mattered were big and powerful engines, not the chassis, like a sports car is designed to accelerate, not to brake, and so on... to be constantly taken back to reality by the competition (Cooper central-engined F1's, Lamborghini Miura, Porsche and Lotus sports cars, and so on)...

Furthermore, they always involved themselves in dark political manouvers all through the history, mainly in competition and these recent years have been no different.

I would everytime drive a Renault, in opposition to a Ferrari, they are the symbol of a philosophy that is exactly opposed to mine, being at the personal beliefs and values side and profissionaly, given my engineering education (the education that makes me believe that you must maximise the efficiency of a machine, instead of adding blind power and costs to it). I would gladly drive a Porsche (except a Cayenne) or a Lotus, though.

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

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dumrick wrote:Enzo always defended the sillyest things like front-engined sports cars ("the horses pull the wagon, not the other way around"), like what mattered were big and powerful engines, not the chassis, like a sports car is designed to accelerate, not to brake, and so on... to be constantly taken back to reality by the competition (Cooper central-engined F1's, Lamborghini Miura, Porsche and Lotus sports cars, and so on)...
I am so sorry to take this thread as a motive to try to explain what I feel for Ferrari: the truth is... I don't know what I feel for Enzo Ferrari. :wink:

This is a really long post, skip it if you are not in "history mode".

Surely the great Enzo did many silly things in his life. I have said I don't like Ferrari, the brand, but again, I don't like too much any corporation (not even Greenpeace :D ). I work almost alone.

This is why I like individuals. And Mr. Ferrari certainly did some things well, and, at least like me, a lot wrong. I tried to search about the guy. This is what I found:

- "It seemed that sometimes Ferrari made irrational choices when, in fact, I realised he was often trusting his instincts or his intuition without worrying too much about rationality, which necessarily tends to stifle dreams and feelings."

- "Ferrari sells every vehicle it makes, and makes a profit on every vehicle it sells" (talk about efficiency!).

- "The company does not want to increase its volume or raise the prices of its cars.".

- "... there should always be one less car available than what the market is demanding." (talk about Just In Time being invented by japanese!)

- "In a mood of deep reflection, Ferrari talks to a journalist... about his long life, which had but one focus- a passion and dream to race cars and then to build the fastest car in the world."

- "Early Ferraris (say the 60s) had a reputation for being demanding of their drivers. Cockpit layouts could be illogical and inconvenient or worse."

- "... he met the father of the legendary Italian W.W.I ace Francesco Baracca. The senior Baracca was enamored with the courage and audacity of the young Ferrari and presented the young driver with his son’s squadron badge, which was the famous Prancing Horse on a yellow shield." (this is a clue for the people complaining about Enzo Ferrari shoving his way: the guy choose a war squadron badge for his team)

- "... Baracca choose a horse for his squadron because it was part of a cavalry regiment and because he was considered the best cavalier of his team."

- " ... he was expected to compete driving the latest cars at the years most prestigious race the French Grand Prix. What happened next is not quite clear but it seems that Ferrari suffered a crisis of confidence and was not able to take part in the the biggest race of his career."

- "In 1929 Ferrari started his own firm, Scuderia Ferrari... With Alfa Romeo he exchanged a guarantee of technical assistance with stock in his company. Ferrari then made similar deals with Bosch, Pirelli and Shell... In his first year the Scuderia Ferrari could boast 50 full and part-time drivers! Scuderia Ferrari caused a sensation. It was the largest team ever put together by one individual... It is also not out of the question that if anyone could survive as an independent in the current Formula One world then the younger Ferrari would be that man."

- "Enzo kept a famous aversion towards his clients, because he felt that most of them were buying his cars because of the prestige and not because of its performance."

Finally, to sum up, yes he was a bussinesman. But what bussinesman can give you this description of the work of Tazio Nuvolari?

"At the first bend," Ferrari writes, "I had the clear sensation that Tazio had taken it badly and that we would end up in the ditch; I felt myself stiffen as I waited for the crunch. Instead, we found ourselves on the next straight with the car in a perfect position. I looked at him,"

Ferrari goes on. "His rugged face was calm, just as it always was, and certainly not the face of someone who had just escaped a hair-raising spin. I had the same sensation at the second bend. By the fourth or fifth bend I began to understand; in the meantime, I had noticed that through the entire bend Tazio did not lift his foot from the accelerator, and that, in fact, it was flat on the floor."

"As bend followed bend, I discovered his secret. Nuvolari entered the bend somewhat earlier than my driver's instinct would have told me to. But he went into the bend in an unusual way: with one movement he aimed the nose of the car at the inside edge, just where the curve itself started."

"His foot was flat down, and he had obviously changed down to the right gear before going through this fearsome rigmarole. In this way he put the car into a four-wheel drift, making the most of the thrust of the centrifugal force and keeping it on the road with the traction of the driving wheels. Throughout the bend the car shaved the inside edge, and when the bend turned into the straight the car was in the normal position for accelerating down it, with no need for any corrections."

Ferrari honestly admits that he soon became used to this exercise, because he saw Nuvolari do it countless times. "But each time I seemed to be climbing into a roller coaster and finding myself coming through the downhill run with that sort of dazed feeling that we all know."

This is no Donald Trump.
Last edited by Ciro Pabón on 17 May 2006, 02:39, edited 1 time in total.
Ciro