Ranting

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
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m3_lover
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Joined: 26 Jan 2006, 07:29
Location: St.Catharines, Ontario, Canada

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Tom wrote:Older cars are far better looking. Cars which someone spent a week hammering out one piece at a time have far more appeal than something that was stamped by a machine. Thats why I like F1 machines and especially LMP cars (Le Mans Prototypes) bexause they have been moulded into that shape esspecially, not mass produced.
Actually the 612 body for the headlights have to be hammered by a technican because a machine couldn't do it.
Simon: Nils? You can close in now. Nils?
John McClane: [on the guard's phone] Attention! Attention! Nils is dead! I repeat, Nils is dead, ----head. So's his pal, and those four guys from the East German All-Stars, your boys at the bank? They're gonna be a little late.
Simon: [on the phone] John... in the back of the truck you're driving, there's $13 billon dollars worth in gold bullion. I wonder would a deal be out of the question?
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Reca
Reca
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Joined: 21 Dec 2003, 18:22
Location: Monza, Italy

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manchild wrote: When it matters post-race checkups Ferrari wing didn’t pass any scrutiny dealing with flexibility except the scrutiny dealing with dimensions and position relative to the car (done after every race). Scrutinizing after the race isn’t including analysis if flexibility of wings is within allowed limits. That is why FIA actually never analyzed Ferrari’s wing or any other team wings. What ever they said it was just their opinion not announcement given after some detailed inspection of flexibility.

Such detailed inspections are only conducted after someone files an official protest and since that still didn’t h happen flexibility of Ferrari wings wasn’t officially tested by FIA. So, their current legality is based on personal opinion of certain FIA heads which is something many said they don’t like including me and that is politics. I’d like to see all wings in F1 analyzed by FIA stewards and an official piece of paper with results instead of war of words.

For those who think this is ranting please point out which thing in this post isn’t the truth.
After each race FIA releases on the official website, amongst other things, also the Scrutineering Reports with detailed info on the tests made on cars during the whole event, so it’s not “war of words” as you claim but an official piece of paper exists and is available to everybody.
That’s the page with press releases for Bahrain race and it also includes links to all the races.
http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_In ... hrain.html

Looking at the scrutineering reports you can see that tests about flexibility aren’t conducted only after protest as you claim but are made whenever stewards and technical delegate want, just like it happens for a considerable quantity of other tests made to certify cars legality.

In 2006, till now, tests on wing deflection were made in three occasions.
In Malaysia after qualifying, on 3 cars, #02 Renault, #10 Williams and #12 Honda.
http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/ ... ort_06.PDF
In Australia after the race, on the uppermost element of the first 8 cars (no Ferrari since both retired)
http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/ ... ort_06.PDF
At Nuerburgring after the race, on three cars, #01 Renault, #05 Ferrari and #03 McLaren.
http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/ ... ort_06.PDF

This means that, again contrarily to your claim, many cars, Ferrari included, were tested for flexing and all passed scrutineering.
manchild wrote: Bottom line, Ross Brown admitted that their car is illegal when he said “all cars are illegal”.
No, that’s just your convenient interpretation of a truncated quote.

The quote comes from an interview. Ross Brawn was asked a comment on presumed Honda’s video evidence showing Ferrari rear wing flexing and he said that if you look at video images of all the cars you’ll see for all cars flexing wings/parts, consequently if video evidence was the method to judge legality, all cars would be illegal.

Ross Brawn didn’t say all cars are illegal as reported by sensationalistic media headlines and certainly didn’t admit Ferrari car is illegal as you pretend he did; he just made the same point several people made here too. Cars have to pass FIA tests and FIA tests only. Once a car pass FIA tests, the car is legal and video evidence is pointless. It’s valid for Ferrari like it’s valid for Renault, McLaren, Williams, Honda, Toyota, BMW, Red Bull, Toro Rosso, Midland and SuperAguri.

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Tom
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Joined: 13 Jan 2006, 00:24
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m3_lover wrote:
Actually the 612 body for the headlights have to be hammered by a technican because a machine couldn't do it.
612? be more specific.
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.

Tp
Tp
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Joined: 02 Mar 2006, 15:52
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manchild
manchild
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I agree that additional checkups can be conducted if demanded by stewards or technical delegate but I'm not sure that they have any real freedom to actually act without someone’s permission. Imagine CW deciding on his own to strip down gearbox because he suspects something (such analysis means revealing technology too).

About those reports of wing deflection “test”... First of all that is part of scrutinizing using static load which means that it can detect fraud only if wing flexes as expected by FIA method which is something whoever designes flexing wing keeps in mind. When I said detail analysis I meant wind tunnel testing just as for example suspicious material or fuel would be tested in a specialized lab.

Another interesting thing is that in those reports before hint given to Ferrari no tests were conducted on their front wing so I wonder on what was FIA’s hint based?

RH1300S
RH1300S
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Joined: 06 Jun 2005, 15:29

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Here's a question - serious answers, no conspiracy theories if possible please.

Ok, moveable aero devices are banned - have been forever (ish) - to me that was originally meant to mean devices which could move by mechanical means. Some cars tried driver controlled stuff, others had springs and other mechanisms to let a wing lower it's angle of attack at higher speeds. BTW - has anyone ever seen a system Porsche tried on their sports cars - connected to the rear suspension? As the body moved down the aero sections flattened their angle of attack - different response each side, so when the car rolled in a corner the inside flap had a steeper angle of attack.

Now the issue is flexing of aero surfaces. A purely passive response. The latest raft of measuring systems were introduced mainly on safety grounds because they were worried about potential failures. If a wing passes what is effectively a strength test it is deemed strong enough & safe enough to race with.

It is fair to argue that teams are, in fact, not cheating.

OK, the waters have been muddied because there is a clear overlap between flexing and moveable aero - even so...........

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Tom
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Joined: 13 Jan 2006, 00:24
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Perhaps that is fair. The rules have not been breached/tickled to counter the original reason for their introduction which was safety but instead for performance advantage while staying as safe as the regs allow. Perhaps the FIA should modify that rule to allow movable aeros that coincide with safety tests. I think the rules were introduced after the fateful Barcelona race ('71 I think) where failures of high wings lead to spectator deaths but times have changed. Safe devices can be made with modern composites so surely they should be reallowed...within reason.

(m3_lover, still ugly though... 8) )
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.

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wazojugs
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006, 18:53
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thanks for the pictures of the Ferarri's they are really nice :^o

give me a clio trophy cup that would make me grin far more than driving a prancing horse.

if you don't believe me read Evo magazine car of the year 2005.....

pyry
pyry
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Joined: 04 Jul 2004, 16:45
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that 612 is a total ripoff of aston martin and porsche

Tp
Tp
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Joined: 02 Mar 2006, 15:52
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Wazojugs wrote:give me a clio trophy cup that would make me grin far more than driving a prancing horse.

if you don't believe me read Evo magazine car of the year 2005.....
Ah yes, I've actually read that, the Ferrari F430 beat it (what a surprise.) So give me a Ferrari, and I'll race you, then lets see who has the grin :lol: . In fact as it is French, it'll probably blow up before we even start.
that 612 is a total ripoff of aston martin and porsche
How the hell can a Ferrari be a ripoff, of what is basically a supped-up arsed engined VW beetle look-a-like. Plus the Aston doesn't drive as well as it looks and it is actually part Ford (as they own Aston now.) So it isn't British- and that was the only thing good going for it.

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Tom
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Joined: 13 Jan 2006, 00:24
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Tp wrote
In fact as it is French, it'll probably blow up before we even start.
Yeah, I've noticed neither of the French Renaults F1 cars don't seem to have completed a race distance yet! :twisted:

(I have a French car! :evil: )
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.

Tp
Tp
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Joined: 02 Mar 2006, 15:52
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Of course, since the people who designed the Renault Clio also designed and built their F1 car :D ....... And the fact that the Clio, like all cars really, was there to make profit an F1 car wasn't, therefore they cut corners on the production car, whereas on the F1 car, its only the finest material's that will do.

Well we have a Renault Scenic, which as I quote my mum saying is, "A pile of sh*t"

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wazojugs
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006, 18:53
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Tp wrote:
Wazojugs wrote:give me a clio trophy cup that would make me grin far more than driving a prancing horse.

if you don't believe me read Evo magazine car of the year 2005.....
Ah yes, I've actually read that, the Ferrari F430 beat it (what a surprise.) So give me a Ferrari, and I'll race you, then lets see who has the grin :lol: . In fact as it is French, it'll probably blow up before we even start.
yes the ford GT got 95.1 points, the ferrari 93.0 points and the clio 92.9. hhhmmm 0.1 differnce and it costs £15k compared to £118k i would feel sad knowing that a car for £15k would give as much if not more driving satisfaction. Yes i will take you up on the race anytime, you see i have a clio on the drive :lol: do you have a red skip with wheels on yours hhmmm me thinks not :cry:

look beyond the badge of the prancing horse and this aura you have built in your head and you will find that ferrari's are not that wel built and not that reliable either. i bet i can find your more high milage running vw look-a-like than ferrari's

Tp
Tp
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So what you're saying then is that you paid £15K for a car which was beaten by a "red skip with wheels"? :lol: :lol: Must be crap car you bought then!!

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Tom
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Joined: 13 Jan 2006, 00:24
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Yeah, when my mum drove the new Ferrari 599 GTB she said the ride was uninspiring and the handling was not as good as the Ascari KZ1 [-( :^o
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.