Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
I was just thinking about what F1 would be like if they brought back ground effects, like the skirted cars of the early 80's i think it was.
I've heard that the cars would be pushing a rediculous amount of g's, near 4.5, esp laterally, but the drag is way less.
I know with mad max in control it's never gonna happen and there are saftey issues with cars loosing the ground effect mid corner and such, but i was thinking slip streams would truely be back into the sport. I donno, just putting it out there...
I heard they are going to try a split wing design in um, I think 08'? It's going to reduce turbulence behind the car to promote overtaking, at the cost of a bit of downforce.
ya look i'll admit skirts are a bit overboard i'll admit and corner speed is the enemy of overtaking but i'd just love to see some slip streaming.
that split win guess would help, but u also dont wanna fiddle to much with aero cause it's been F1's claim to fame in recent years.
How's this for an idea, standardised skirts. they do already define the undertray ( that lovely bit of out-of-place overpriced ply wood you don't often see) so wouldn't standardised wings just be a step further
i mean, the skirts are standard but the aero is left alone, if mildly restricted to promote less drag....
Still doesn't solve the problem of overtaking....for that to happen they need to actually brake for corners....
F1 cars these days are already pushing 5 Gs in some corners(Montoya was quoted at saying this year Copse at Silverstone is 5.2G), and thats part of the issue as all cars are just running flatout, not slowing down, and when you follow too closely you have to slow down more to take the corner...more downforce is not what they needed for improve passing...
No the split wing will NOT work... A lot of debate has been conducted over that, and the general opinion is it wont work.
Skirts would be good, but the drivers are already blacking out (reaching 5.5g's or so at Silverstone last week).
We DONT want faster cornering, to promote overtaking the envelope needs to be opened... Longer braking distances, larger difference between top and low speed.
For the record, I think that piece of ply mentioned above is there and made of wood so that
a, the FIA know if the car is below the legal ride height because there will be less than 10mm of wood left
and b, if the car does bottom out there is a lot of give in the wood where as the old titanium (I think) ones would make it harder to regain control of the car when the underside does hit the black stuff.
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.
Skirts and radical underbody shapes were common in F1 a few generations ago. They may be a step forward technically, but in the interests of safety, a bad move. A properly designed ground effects car can give more downforce with less drag than a car of the same era. But those missiles just rocketed through corners, it was more about aiming and hoping than grip and driver skill. And the side forces were severe, making the stresses on the drivers more than acceptable.
So F1 banned side skirts, and forced the cars to a minimum ride height, which is the goal of the wooden skid plate on the underbody.
And that is where we are now, with the cars forced to a minimum ride height and unable to use any effective side skirts. Or so it seems.
The reality is that there is an invisible side skirt, not as good as in previous cars, but it's there. It's called aero, and it's achieved by use of clever aero tricks. The rear diffuser is a large as rules allow, and that is one of the keys to ground effects. There are two other important factors, side skirts, and the management of air entering the underbody. Weird, high noses, bargeboards, they are all there to make this happen. And the side skirts?
Well, air is reluctant to flow past a sharp corner, it prefers rounded edges. On the side of the undertray, they have a sharp lip. Thus, air flowing around the sidepods and such isn't going to easily flow down and under the chassis. As well, the sidepods are pinched in at the bottom, giving accelerated airflow just above the sharp lipped bottom tray. That creates a low pressure zone, in a very nice place. Just above the flat tray, where obviously a low pressure zone is much nicer than a high pressure zone.
mini696 wrote:No the split wing will NOT work... A lot of debate has been conducted over that, and the general opinion is it wont work.
Skirts would be good, but the drivers are already blacking out (reaching 5.5g's or so at Silverstone last week).
We DONT want faster cornering, to promote overtaking the envelope needs to be opened... Longer braking distances, larger difference between top and low speed.
I heard something about push to pass too, but I don't remember where.
Instead of changing wing regulations, why not eliminate them? Dave is right about virtual ground effects and I remember the Williams FW07 and Brabham BT49 and others running with no front wing at all. So taking off the rear wing in addition to no front wing would definitely change things a bit.
I've always wondered why they don't just ban automatic gearboxes. With drivers actually having to negotiate shifting as well as dealing with a third pedal (or lever) that alone would create a lot of chances for a driver to make a mistake. That would allow for overtaking and also probably put more emphasis on driver quality. It also seems a lot easier than trying to continously ban aerodynamic improvements as they are found. It also allows for easier comparisons to the greats of the past. Somehow, I just feel like Jacques has life a lot easier in the cockpit than Gilles ever did.
I don't buy the safety aspect of car performance. The drivers are professionals who should know what they can take and how to modulate their right foot accordingly. Blackouts are not possible in cars unless they are on an extreme bank so that the acceleration force is parallel to the torso. The highest g loads are encountered under braking and in decreasing radius corners. But those are lateral. The biggest problem is trying to keep your head pointed where you want. It's kinda hard to move your head + helmet when it is suddenly 5 times heavier. Check out the necks on the F1 drivers. Takuma Sato once said that he often lays down watching tv with a sack of rice (10kg) on his head doing lifts in various directions.
