European Union bans sale of petrol and diesel cars from 2035

[Zynerji]

Unfortunately electric motors are already at more than 90% efficiency whereas the old incandescent bulb was less than 5%. Any significant improvement in EV range, mass or cost will need to be in the energy storage system.

Those synch/reluctant motors are like 99.xx efficiency. It's definitely all in the storage and strategy.

[Greg Locock]

That's where Tesla has an advantage, due to the enormous amount of user data they have. They can fine tune the battery discharge and chemistry to optimise life (#cycles) and range per charge, so they can bring the battery mass down in future vehicles, and get into the lightweighting virtuous circle.

[Andres125sx]

Battery tech and the cure for cancer has soaked up trillions already. Where is the actual progress?!?

In front of you actually, both cancer survival rates and battery energy density have been ramping up for decades, specially in last 2-3 decades the increase have been quite noticeable at both fields

[Just_a_fan]

I found this video quite interesting - discusses synthetic fuels. The company does fuels for classic cars and motorsport and they give an overview of the processes and some of the limitations.

[thestig84]

I’ve got a feeling that over time we may well end up as a works team with our own engine. Thinking of the road car division, it’ll then put us on par with other supercar manufacturers. But clearly not anytime soon

Mclaren's road car division is not exactly profitable and the supre/hypercar market is slowing moving towards full electric. So it's unlikely McLaren will start a powertrain division purely for F1 purposes. As I read, Mclaren is actively looking for a partner to electrify their cars and Toyota does have some advanced battery technology which may be of interest to Mclaren.

Toyota appear to be on course to release a car in 2027 (unless things slip) with a solid state battery. Which should have a bigger range (some estimates put it in the 600+ mile range) and won't take as long to charge. McLaren having access to that kind of battery technology would give them an advantage over it's competitors. I can see a Toyota and McLaren hypercar project happening before anything in F1 happens. But we'll see.

McLaren simply doesn't have the funding to build it's own F1 powertrain from scratch.

(unless things slip)

I would take Toyota and anything they say about EVs with a huge pinch of salt. They are miles behind in that area and here are some historic headlines about their impending solid state breakthrough.....

2023: "Toyota to roll out solid-state-battery EVs as soon as 2027"

2020: "Toyota's Quick-Charging Solid-State Battery Coming in 2025"

2017: "Toyota’s new solid-state battery could make its way to cars by 2020"

2014: "Toyota to Offer High Performance Solid-State Batteries in 2020"

[CHT]

Battery technology is important for sports car due to power weight ratio. what car companies are trying to do is to minimise their battery pack to gain better performance. Battery is like the new engine for modern car..

[thestig84]

Toyota appear to be on course to release a car in 2027 (unless things slip) with a solid state battery. Which should have a bigger range (some estimates put it in the 600+ mile range) and won't take as long to charge. McLaren having access to that kind of battery technology would give them an advantage over it's competitors. I can see a Toyota and McLaren hypercar project happening before anything in F1 happens. But we'll see.

McLaren simply doesn't have the funding to build it's own F1 powertrain from scratch.

(unless things slip)

I would take Toyota and anything they say about EVs with a huge pinch of salt. They are miles behind in that area and here are some historic headlines about their impending solid state breakthrough.....

2023: "Toyota to roll out solid-state-battery EVs as soon as 2027"

2020: "Toyota's Quick-Charging Solid-State Battery Coming in 2025"

2017: "Toyota’s new solid-state battery could make its way to cars by 2020"

2014: "Toyota to Offer High Performance Solid-State Batteries in 2020"

Um. You might want to revise your statement about being miles behind. They hold far more battery patents than any other company.

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/toyota- ... y-patents/

"Toyota is the leader, with 1,331 known patents. Panasonic took second place with 445"

They have more than 3 times the number of patents related to solid state batteries than anyone else so it would be a fair statement to make that they will be the first to get over that yardstick.

As far as hybrid technology goes they started it from a consumer point of view and have pretty much led the field since then doing more with smaller batteries.

If you need an example just look at something like the Toyota Yaris Cross. The sort of real world fuel mileage it gets (talking from personal experience as well as I regularly drive one) is impressive especially when you consider how small and low capacity the battery is. Their charging and deployment systems to maximise fuel economy is probably ahead of any of the other companies.

Personally I'd be happy to see Toyota form a partnership of some kind with McLaren, hopefully more so initially on the road car division, to help develop the hybrid systems. It can only make the brand stronger.

No I wont be revising my statement. They might have patents coming out of their ears but ignoring dated tech hybrids that 'self charge' (lies - they charge using fossil fuel) their current EV offerings are woeful. Show me their current EV tech that proves otherwise.

They have been and still are anti EV. Trying to stall consumers and governments (only company congratulating U.K government recent ice ban U-turn) until they catch up after missing the boat. https://www.carscoops.com/2022/12/toyot ... ly-future/

So many stories I could link. This is a good one after new CEO and sudden direction change.... https://thedriven.io/2023/01/30/toyota- ... -vehicles/

[mwillems]

(unless things slip)

I would take Toyota and anything they say about EVs with a huge pinch of salt. They are miles behind in that area and here are some historic headlines about their impending solid state breakthrough.....

2023: "Toyota to roll out solid-state-battery EVs as soon as 2027"

2020: "Toyota's Quick-Charging Solid-State Battery Coming in 2025"

2017: "Toyota’s new solid-state battery could make its way to cars by 2020"

2014: "Toyota to Offer High Performance Solid-State Batteries in 2020"

Um. You might want to revise your statement about being miles behind. They hold far more battery patents than any other company.

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/toyota- ... y-patents/

"Toyota is the leader, with 1,331 known patents. Panasonic took second place with 445"

They have more than 3 times the number of patents related to solid state batteries than anyone else so it would be a fair statement to make that they will be the first to get over that yardstick.

As far as hybrid technology goes they started it from a consumer point of view and have pretty much led the field since then doing more with smaller batteries.

If you need an example just look at something like the Toyota Yaris Cross. The sort of real world fuel mileage it gets (talking from personal experience as well as I regularly drive one) is impressive especially when you consider how small and low capacity the battery is. Their charging and deployment systems to maximise fuel economy is probably ahead of any of the other companies.

Personally I'd be happy to see Toyota form a partnership of some kind with McLaren, hopefully more so initially on the road car division, to help develop the hybrid systems. It can only make the brand stronger.

No I wont be revising my statement. They might have patents coming out of their ears but ignoring dated tech hybrids that 'self charge' (lies - they charge using fossil fuel) their current EV offerings are woeful. Show me their current EV tech that proves otherwise.

They have been and still are anti EV. Trying to stall consumers and governments (only company congratulating U.K government recent ice ban U-turn) until they catch up after missing the boat. https://www.carscoops.com/2022/12/toyot ... ly-future/

So many stories I could link. This is a good one after new CEO and sudden direction change.... https://thedriven.io/2023/01/30/toyota- ... -vehicles/

Maybe I'm missing the point, but what does any of that have to do with their Investment in and ability to produce Solid State Batteries?

[SmallSoldier]

Um. You might want to revise your statement about being miles behind. They hold far more battery patents than any other company.

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/toyota- ... y-patents/

"Toyota is the leader, with 1,331 known patents. Panasonic took second place with 445"

They have more than 3 times the number of patents related to solid state batteries than anyone else so it would be a fair statement to make that they will be the first to get over that yardstick.

As far as hybrid technology goes they started it from a consumer point of view and have pretty much led the field since then doing more with smaller batteries.

If you need an example just look at something like the Toyota Yaris Cross. The sort of real world fuel mileage it gets (talking from personal experience as well as I regularly drive one) is impressive especially when you consider how small and low capacity the battery is. Their charging and deployment systems to maximise fuel economy is probably ahead of any of the other companies.

Personally I'd be happy to see Toyota form a partnership of some kind with McLaren, hopefully more so initially on the road car division, to help develop the hybrid systems. It can only make the brand stronger.

No I wont be revising my statement. They might have patents coming out of their ears but ignoring dated tech hybrids that 'self charge' (lies - they charge using fossil fuel) their current EV offerings are woeful. Show me their current EV tech that proves otherwise.

They have been and still are anti EV. Trying to stall consumers and governments (only company congratulating U.K government recent ice ban U-turn) until they catch up after missing the boat. https://www.carscoops.com/2022/12/toyot ... ly-future/

So many stories I could link. This is a good one after new CEO and sudden direction change.... https://thedriven.io/2023/01/30/toyota- ... -vehicles/

Maybe I'm missing the point, but what does any of that have to do with their Investment in and ability to produce Solid State Batteries?

I believe you guys may be a little bit out of topic debating Toyota’s ability to bring to market a SSB or the ratio between Patent Filings to Commercializable Product

[djos]

Toyota have been claiming they would release a car with a Solid State battery since 2017, it was due last year - so dont hold your breath on them releasing a useful SSB anytime soon.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/toyota-ev ... 22-report/

EDIT: beaten by theStig

I know, they have claimed they've made a breakthrough that allows them to reduce the size and weight of the batteries which means cheaper manufacturing costs. If true then they might get a solid state battery car off the production lines before the decade is over. We'll see if it lives upto the 745 mile range and 10 minute charge time.
They are also looking to reduce the weight and size for Lithium Ion batteries. So it might well be in McLaren's F1 and road manufacturing interests to do a deal with Toyota.

It isn't just Toyota either. VW and BYD have said the same and that they are gearing up for production. There is clearly a knowledge breakthrough that has happened over the past year and the firms are moving quickly because this tech will corner a big slice of the EV market, and given the cost, weight, range and charge time hurdles they will overcome, a large portion of the overall market.

It's worth noting that while Toyota's mass production will happen in '27, they have said that small scale production will be happening from '25 onwards. BYD are apparently almost ready to mass produce their SSBs.

https://news.metal.com/newscontent/1016 ... t-any-time

It's hard to ignore that they are on the cusp of being available to F1 teams at that there will be a hard fought race for the tech, having links with one of the key players in the SSB market is probably not a coincidence.

F1 would be the ideal proving ground for them, that is for sure! I can’t think of a more brutal environment to test them in.

[mwillems]

No I wont be revising my statement. They might have patents coming out of their ears but ignoring dated tech hybrids that 'self charge' (lies - they charge using fossil fuel) their current EV offerings are woeful. Show me their current EV tech that proves otherwise.

They have been and still are anti EV. Trying to stall consumers and governments (only company congratulating U.K government recent ice ban U-turn) until they catch up after missing the boat. https://www.carscoops.com/2022/12/toyot ... ly-future/

So many stories I could link. This is a good one after new CEO and sudden direction change.... https://thedriven.io/2023/01/30/toyota- ... -vehicles/

Maybe I'm missing the point, but what does any of that have to do with their Investment in and ability to produce Solid State Batteries?

I believe you guys may be a little bit out of topic debating Toyota’s ability to bring to market a SSB or the ratio between Patent Filings to Commercializable Product

I think discussing the link up with Toyota potentially relating to SSBs is on topic - particularly given the advantage they would bring in terms of weight, CoG, efficiency... I'm just not understanding how any of what has been said by stig detracts from that idea as it seems largely related to other things about Toyota, which is the question I'm asking, because I don't see how any of it is relevant, but I want to give him the opportunity to explain.

[djos]

Maybe I'm missing the point, but what does any of that have to do with their Investment in and ability to produce Solid State Batteries?

I believe you guys may be a little bit out of topic debating Toyota’s ability to bring to market a SSB or the ratio between Patent Filings to Commercializable Product

I think discussing the link up with Toyota potentially relating to SSBs is on topic - particularly given the advantage they would bring in terms of weight, CoG, efficiency... I'm just not understanding how any of what has been said by stig detracts from that idea as it seems largely related to other things about Toyota, which is the question I'm asking, because I don't see how any of it is relevant, but I want to give him the opportunity to explain.

To be fair, he is right to be concerned that Toyota’s SSB is vapourware - they have been making promises for nearly 2 decades and still have nothing to show for them.

The chances are that the Chinese battery companies will beat them to mass production by many years.

It’s one thing to have a lot of laboratory patents, it’s quite another to be able to manufacture a product.

[mwillems]

I believe you guys may be a little bit out of topic debating Toyota’s ability to bring to market a SSB or the ratio between Patent Filings to Commercializable Product

I think discussing the link up with Toyota potentially relating to SSBs is on topic - particularly given the advantage they would bring in terms of weight, CoG, efficiency... I'm just not understanding how any of what has been said by stig detracts from that idea as it seems largely related to other things about Toyota, which is the question I'm asking, because I don't see how any of it is relevant, but I want to give him the opportunity to explain.

To be fair, he is right to be concerned that Toyota’s SSB is vapourware - they have been making promises for nearly 2 decades and still have nothing to show for them.

The chances are that the Chinese battery companies will beat them to mass production by many years.

It’s one thing to have a lot of laboratory patents, it’s quite another to be able to manufacture a product.

I'm not sure how anything he posted backs that up, is what I'm getting at.

As I said, it seems apparent from the several manufactures and battery tech companies stating at the same time that they have broken through, that something has happened. I see nothing to think that Toyota are not being honest nor do I for a second think that if this is what it is about, that Zak hasn't spoken to them and got assurances in lieu of a demonstration of the product, I think the guy get's the benefit of the doubt on that front.

As for F1, this is a very big deal and teams will want to get their ducks in line. Get left out of the new battery tech and you are going to have a reasonable handicap.

[djos]

I think discussing the link up with Toyota potentially relating to SSBs is on topic - particularly given the advantage they would bring in terms of weight, CoG, efficiency... I'm just not understanding how any of what has been said by stig detracts from that idea as it seems largely related to other things about Toyota, which is the question I'm asking, because I don't see how any of it is relevant, but I want to give him the opportunity to explain.

To be fair, he is right to be concerned that Toyota’s SSB is vapourware - they have been making promises for nearly 2 decades and still have nothing to show for them.

The chances are that the Chinese battery companies will beat them to mass production by many years.

It’s one thing to have a lot of laboratory patents, it’s quite another to be able to manufacture a product.

I'm not sure how anything he posted backs that up, is what I'm getting at.

As I said, it seems apparent from the several manufactures and battery tech companies stating at the same time that they have broken through, that something has happened. I see nothing to think that Toyota are not being honest nor do I for a second think that if this is what it is about, that Zak hasn't spoken to them and got assurances in lieu of a demonstration of the product, I think the guy get's the benefit of the doubt on that front.

As for F1, this is a very big deal and teams will want to get their ducks in line. Get left out of the new battery tech and you are going to have a reasonable handicap.

They don’t even have a drivable demonstrator, that right there is a giant red flag for me. All the statements from Toyota regarding their SSB’s use speculative language, further making me doubt them.

Surely if they’ve really cracked this tech, they could show off lab built prototypes in action.

[mwillems]

To be fair, he is right to be concerned that Toyota’s SSB is vapourware - they have been making promises for nearly 2 decades and still have nothing to show for them.

The chances are that the Chinese battery companies will beat them to mass production by many years.

It’s one thing to have a lot of laboratory patents, it’s quite another to be able to manufacture a product.

I'm not sure how anything he posted backs that up, is what I'm getting at.

As I said, it seems apparent from the several manufactures and battery tech companies stating at the same time that they have broken through, that something has happened. I see nothing to think that Toyota are not being honest nor do I for a second think that if this is what it is about, that Zak hasn't spoken to them and got assurances in lieu of a demonstration of the product, I think the guy get's the benefit of the doubt on that front.

As for F1, this is a very big deal and teams will want to get their ducks in line. Get left out of the new battery tech and you are going to have a reasonable handicap.

They don’t even have a drivable demonstrator, that right there is a giant red flag for me. All the statements from Toyota regarding their SSB’s use speculative language, further making me doubt them.

I'm not sure we know what they have. I'm going to just pin this chat in my favourites and set up a reminder to review in 12 months