Tilke is an artist...

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captainmorgan
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Re: Tilke is an artist...

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Tilke is hit and miss. Sure, he has many tracks forever blemishing his record, but Istanbul is one of the better tracks out there.

Alright maybe he's more miss than hit though

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: Tilke is an artist...

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I happen to think most of his tracks are a hit... Istanbul, Bahrain, Shanghai, Malaysia... all excellant tracks with multiple overtaking opps. Excellant mix of long straights into hard braking for overtaking, fast corners and interesting hairpins.

Singapore is horrible but he was given pre-existing streets to work around. Someone should be shot for Valencia, but is that a Tilke track? again pre existing streets.

modbaraban
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Re: Tilke is an artist...

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Tracks like Sepang, Sakhir and Shanghai aren't what I'd call interesting. Sepang was fantastic for its time in respect of facilities and grandstands etc. But the track itself is rediculously wide with a rediculously narrow racing line (compare that to Silverstone for example). Same with Sakhir but it's even worse as the scenery is generic in every corner sand/barriers/sky. Shanghai is the best of the three but again, wide track with narrow racing line.
For some reason Istanbul stans out for me. It's spectacular to watch and to drive.
I'm not talking about the racent street circuits. There were destined to be rubbish.
Also people tend to hate Tilke for what he did to Hockenheim. To be honest I don't. Obviously the old track was great but if you look at what Tilke did to 'pack' the track inside the spectator area keeping it away for the forest, I think he did very well. There are some interesting corners out there and some new overtaking spots too.
Oh, and I would definitely shoot Tilke for ruining the last turn of Catalunya. ](*,)

andartop
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In Tilke's defense, he's probably doing exactly what they ask him to: design safe, politically correct tracks with some opportunities for overtaking. I think he didn't do a bad job at all in Instanbul and China, BUT his tracks are definitely nowhere near Suzuka, Spa or Monza. I seriously doubt that his tracks will be remembered as fondly as the aforementioned 30 years down the line, but only history will show. Sepang and Bahrain already feel old somehow everytime I watch a race or play in them. The changes at Hockenheim were a huge mistake, altering beyond recognition one of the best old-school tracks, but that was not necessarily his fault. Please keep him away from LeMans!
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. H.P.Lovecraft

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Tilke is an artist...

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tk421 wrote:Just because a track is new doesn't mean it can't be 5 or 6 miles long with only 12 or 15 corners, a high average speed, and still have plenty of overtaking opportunities...
Well, actually it does mean. Read this, please
The maximum permitted length for straight sections of track is
2km. If the circuit is intended for FIA Championship, Trophy or Cup
events, the length should be calculated to satisfy the minima
stipulated in Supplement 2. It is recommended that the length of
any new circuit should not exceed 7 km.
--Appendix O to Technical Regulations: Procedures for the Recognition of Motor Racing Circuits--

Do you see a pattern in the following image? Exceptions made for historic tracks (Brazil, Spa, Monaco and Hungary, which are shorter) all circuits measure between 5 and 5.8 km, that is, 3.1 to 3.6 miles. Only Spa measures 7 km. On a side note, all race lengths measure between 305 and 310 km (except Monaco).

Image

The reason I can come up with for this "regularity" is that the construction cost of the track and the cost of the operation are proportional to length. Besides, you are restricted by safety regulations, that have the following spirit:
"... the distance between consecutive posts (disregarding supplementary posts) should not exceed 500m"

and

"... the (emergency) vehicles can reach any part of the circuit within appropriate times and that they carry the appropriate personnel and the equipment listed in point 8.3.1 for fire-fighting, 9.4 for medical and/or 10.2 for rescue."
--Appendix H to Technical Regulations: Recommendations for the supervision of the road and emergency services--

Other point: I've "just" said in a previous post that I think the reason for Tilke's dominance to be his shop real experiene in:

"... the calculation of the "envolvent of possible car trajectories" (which I think is) the most important safety device in history of racing."

Once you do this kind of calculations, you see that high speed curves are not good for overtaking, are truly risky and cost an eye to the track owner because of the safety zones they require.

Perhaps the new aerodynamic regulations can change that fact, but I'm waiting to see if they achieved this goal of allowing overtaking in fast sweeping curves. Frankly, I think that the changes (with KERS and all) will be minimum. The human neck has strength limits... ;)

Finally, I believe that at Singapore some of the kinks are caused by urban elements not readily visible. The ugliest kink is because of a statue of an elephant, if I remember well... :) (I swear I'm not making this up).

When you take a hard look at that ugly corner, you see is also hard to avoid the kink unless you risk a crash against that statue (I'm not sure what the statue represents, but you get the idea). Most of the curves have a building in front. What can you do? Demolish the building, that's what you can do.

At Valencia you have a little more freedom because some areas were undeveloped. There is also lower investment needs at the ugliest curves that existed before the layout was built, but, even with that factored in, some horizontal elements are unavoidable, unless you pave the water at the port.

I don't know what Tilke would do at Le Sarthe, but the Bugatti circuit, the one used by F1 ages ago, seems (from the air) boring as hell.
Ciro

andartop
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Re: Tilke is an artist...

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Ciro Pabón wrote:I don't know what Tilke would do at Le Sarthe..
Thanks for the previous post, always interesting to read that sort of analysis. On a lighter note, given the Hockenheim example, he would probably remove one of the greatest straights in the history of European motorsports and replace it with a Mickey-Mouse like twisty bit around the toilets.
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. H.P.Lovecraft

Scotracer
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Re: Tilke is an artist...

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I would but appauled if they used the Bugatti circuit for the French GP. Whilst it has the heritage, it is one of the most tedious circuits around. It has straights of equal length (several of them) no real fast corners and several hairpin-style ones. It's like a Scalextric set with too few pieces.

What we need in a new circuit is a medium length straight (i.e. the length of Hanger Straight) then followed by a fast section of corners. The problem with current circuits that Tilke has designed is that the fast corners are punctuated by short straights so the cars never have an excess of speed whilst heading towards them. The only exception is Turn 10 (?) at Sahkir. To have more corners like them, but lined up in succession (such as the Esses' at Suzuka) where the cars will become unsettled. Turn 8 at Istanbul would be much more spectacular if it had a medium-length downhill straight section before hand.
Powertrain Cooling Engineer

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tk421
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Re: Tilke is an artist...

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Thanks, first of all, Ciro. You are one of the few who go in-depth =D> I appreciate your attentiveness
Ciro Pabón wrote:Well, actually it does mean.
Only, asking, but does it actually mean?
The maximum permitted length for straight sections of track is
2km...... It is recommended that the length of
any new circuit should not exceed 7 km.

The 2km 'straights' are pretty clear, but total length sounds like a suggestion, not a rule. I could be mistaken, so that's why I ask. :)
Ciro Pabón wrote: The reason I can come up with for this "regularity" is that the construction cost of the track and the cost of the operation are proportional to length. Besides, you are restricted by safety regulations
About total cost, it's my opinion that you could gain track length by cutting down on the extravagance of the facilities; to keep the facilities as functional as they've ever been, and to still accomodate the 'high-rollers,' but maybe bin some of the over-the-top frills. Additionally, safety features are dependent on the type of circuit (street v regular/road)
Ciro Pabón wrote: you see that high speed curves are not good for overtaking, are truly risky and cost an eye to the track owner because of the safety zones they require.

Again, opinion here :wink: high speed curves are great for spectators, and I was saying that tracks could have more high speed curves but maintain 2 or 3 or 4 overtaking opportunities (depending on the [existing] circuit), but I agree with you about runoff areas, except street circuits of course.
Ciro Pabón wrote: Perhaps the new aerodynamic regulations can change that fact
I couldn't agree more. Obviously I didn't say it #-o but the effect of the 2009 cars was something I was thinking of while posting; e.g. how the new regs will change how the circuit is driven...
Best regards. I guess this explains why I'm not at my post!

Miguel
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Re: Tilke is an artist...

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First of all, I'd like to point out that Formula 1 races are held over the minimum number of laps needed to exceed 305 km, with the exception of Monaco. If we add to this that track length is near 5 km, that explains why all races are between 305 and 310 km long.

And now I'll start disagreeing with Ciro (this is new in the forum! two people disagreeing with Ciro!). I do appreciate variable radius corners, since this gives the drivers more headache and stimulates their creativity. Having to brake while turning is also useful to remind us how well these guys drive. However, I think high-speed sections are a real high for the public. If you've seen an F1 live negotiating a 200 km/h corner you'll know what I mean. Fast changes of direction are also great. This is what makes people long for the old Montmelo layout, or why the swimming pool is my favourite Monaco section. Or why the fast sweepers at Magny-Cours are great to see F1 in action.

It's also the reason why I can't stand Sakhir, full of slow corners after long straights. It sure helps overtaking, but the only two places that seem remotely inspired are the two corners before the backstraight and the esses following it. Is it safer? Yes. But having some variety is also safe, since we don't want the drivers to fall asleep after the n-th hairpin to the right that came after a 700m+ straight.
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr

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Ciro Pabón
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Hey, you're not disagreeing with me, but with the regulation recommendations! :)

Actually, pavement is pretty costly. I estimate, roughly speaking, that 1 km of 12 m wide road costs about 1.5 million devaluated dollars, not taking in account that a track, usually, requires (or should require!) extreme measures for pavement regularity.

That's only for the road, no safety areas, no landscaping, access roads nor extra safety posts nor major bridges or culverts.

That's way more than any facilities can cost, I think (please, architects, lend me a hand here).

So, a 7 mile (11.5 km, roughly) track instead of a 5 km track can cost you around 10 million dollars, for starters. I think this is a low estimate: a true good track has requirements that go beyond normal roads.

Pomona track: the average difference in height among any two patches in this track is thinner than a paper sheet. If the wheels slip because of a bump, a drag cylinder explodes, period.
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Same goes for safety areas: everybody and his dog agrees that leca or gravel beds are totally unsafe and unable to stop an F1 car in any way, as many accidents have proved again and again.

John Fitch is against leca. Who's John? The inventor of the water-filled barrier. He has the support of this impressive list of people: "Mario Andretti, Dan Gurney, Carroll Shelby, Stirling Moss, Phil Hill, Paul Frére, Benny Parsons, Dr. Steve Olvey, William and Doug Milliken, John Gorsline, Brock Yates, Karl Ludvigsen and Chris Economaki"
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So, if you contemplate the idea of an extra 6.5 km of sweeping curves, for the excitement of fans, you have to think of the need of 100-meter-wide paved areas around the track.

I think we're talking serious money here: 8 times more or less the figure I gave, because you have 8 times the width.

Again, running the risk of serious corrections from the forum, we could be easily talking of a cool 100 million dollars for 6.5 km of safety areas for "extra" sweeping curves, throwing some money for barriers and the such.

I cannot imagine how to figure out the fact that the access road are longer because of those safety areas, because you're increasing the size of the perimeter of the track.

No wonder Tilke tries to follow the recommendations, giving you a track of 5 km: that's roughly in the middle of the minimum (3.5 km) and the maximum (7 km) recommended length and give you a lap time of 1:30 more or less.

I haven't spoke of maintenance costs, but you could figure, roughly, around U$30.000 per km per year for simple reseals, again no landscaping nor bridge maintenance. However, resealing a racetrack is not that simple. At Indy you have to lift all the safety barriers and reposition them after the paving, for example, not to mention that the downforce loads "suck" pieces of pavement when cracked. Check this link if interested.

A track should be as flat as possible, this increases exponentially your maintenance costs. Check what I wrote at the end of this post, if you're interested. I quote myself: "I dare to think that the body of an F1 car has more tolerance in dimensions than the finished surface of a drag track."

When a racetrack pavement fails, it could mean the difference between life or death. --Kevin Forbes--

Take in account that landscaping area increases roughly to the square of the length. Throw in some devaluated dollars for fences, vigilance, personnel, and you're increasing very quickly the cost well beyond what an spectacular paddock or a hotel (that actually pays for itself) cost.

The "only" benefit comes from sections that are "a real high". ;)

I'd say: no wonder Ecclestone wants street circuits. At least you can justify the investment, because the track is used (and mantained) for regular cars during the rest of the year. That makes easier to get a balanced budget for the promoter and helps to keep the stand tickets at a reasonable cost. These kind of street tracks are located, usually, downtown, with few trucks, hopefully, which means that the municipality can mantain reasonably well the surface (altough I wonder what will happen in the long run).

Meanwhile, I think drivers are not happy with "our" proposal for a 7 mile long "chain" of fast curves.

A fast sweeping curve at 200 km/h means a load on the neck that is truly the proverbial "pain in the neck". Keep that load on your head for 300 km and we're talking about the risk of serious accidents caused by G forces around 3-4 Gs. That's something hard to balance against that lonely benefit. Not even jet pilots have to resist 3 Gs for 2.5 hours... :)

G-G diagram: it shows you the acceleration capabilities of a car, and it is used to estimate the envolvent of trajectories I mentioned before. In an F1 car, the lateral axis has a scale that goes up to 3.5 Gs and all of them are used by the driver.
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If I may ask a favor, tie a 10 kg weight to your head, incline your head to the side and keep the weight lifted for the next two hours while you play R-factor, then answer me: how do you feel about the architect that designed such a "working" place? And how did your lap times improve? :D

Finally, I don't know if the extra-excitement for spectators that a track double the length would bring is diminished somehow by the fact that you'll have half the laps: you'll see the cars less times; actually, you'll see them half the number of times, because the length of the race is more or less constant (as Miguel explains).
Ciro

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Tilke is an artist...

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Thanks Ciro for some interesting detail about track design and cost. I dare say that any alternative designer would end up in the same noarrow sets of requirements. Tilke bashing is obviously popular but does not take into account how well the man and his team solve a given task. I must say that I'm really impressed with the job he did in Tukey where natural elevation changes were available. If you have a flat piece of desert (as Bahrain) or of swamp (as Shanghai) there is very little in terms of elevation changes that you can do. I bet you have figures for such work as well.

If you build in mountaineous terrain I also bet the cost will increase dramatically versus a flat race venue if cost for the aquisition of the land is neutral. My estimate is at least 40% more for Istambul compared to a flat track of simillar dimension and spec.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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Ciro Pabón
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Thanks, WB, glad to hear from you again.

Allow me to add that altough drivers and fans hate them, I also like the spiral curves at China.

For the architects in the forum, that's the kind of engineering I like, the one nobody notices.

Shanghai Curves 1, 2 and 13. Do you notice anything?
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Ciro

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: Tilke is an artist...

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LIKE THAT GOLDEN MEAN HUH

modbaraban
modbaraban
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Re: Tilke is an artist...

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Nice technical exercise that is but...
As a simracer I must admit I hate that spiral T1 in Shanghai. Race cars don't like to turn and brake at the same time. It's like.... well, you know how some turns put a smile on driver's face? This one like many other 'tilked' corners gives the direct opposite of that feeling.
And as a spectator I have no reason ooowhatsoeva to like that turn. It looks slow, there's no overtaking *yawn*... zzzzzzzzzzzzz

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Ciro Pabón
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modbaraban wrote:As a simracer I must admit I hate that spiral T1 in Shanghai. Race cars don't like to turn and brake at the same time. It's like.... well, you know how some turns put a smile on driver's face? This one like many other 'tilked' corners gives the direct opposite of that feeling.
And as a spectator I have no reason ooowhatsoeva to like that turn. It looks slow, there's no overtaking *yawn*... zzzzzzzzzzzzz
I've seen worse Curve 1 layouts.
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Tip: if you move your steering wheel at a a constant rate, you will trace a golden ratio spiral.

Also, "the ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge..." --Martin Luther King-- ;)
Ciro