Belgian GP 2008

[myurr]

Agree the Mclaren retains and generates more heat in the tyres than the ferrari. But please show me more than one line in the last corner in the situation they were in. If Hamilton stayed nose to tail behind him I seriously doubt he would tighten up steering angle instead of using the full width of the exit. Maybe mid corner/entry different lines for that corner in normal situation (not that overtaking scene ofc)

Actually I was referring to your suggestion that there was only one line in general, not that specific instance.

But it is plausible that Lewis was able to follow Kimi nose to tail through the chicane, and accelerate down the next straight with better drive and make it past. After all when he did make the move he was only slightly alongside - he just had that much advantage under braking - so he didn't need to be **that** much quicker down the straight.

Unfortunately we'll never know, we can only guess.

[Shaddock]

Agree the Mclaren retains and generates more heat in the tyres than the ferrari. But please show me more than one line in the last corner in the situation they were in. If Hamilton stayed nose to tail behind him I seriously doubt he would tighten up steering angle instead of using the full width of the exit. Maybe mid corner/entry different lines for that corner in normal situation (not that overtaking scene ofc)

Actually I was referring to your suggestion that there was only one line in general, not that specific instance.

But it is plausible that Lewis was able to follow Kimi nose to tail through the chicane, and accelerate down the next straight with better drive and make it past. After all when he did make the move he was only slightly alongside - he just had that much advantage under braking - so he didn't need to be **that** much quicker down the straight.

Unfortunately we'll never know, we can only guess.

Lewis had more grip under braking in the corner so you can safely assume that he would also have gotten better traction out of the corner, as his tyres were performing better. You can see Kimi's car tail wagging as he puts the power down and gets wheel spin on exit.

[WhiteBlue]

Trulli is speculating as video analysis further up in this thread has shown. Had Hamilton lifted and followed Reikkonen around bus stop he could have raced him on the strait just the same. He had superior traction in the wet. when Kimi pushed him outside on the run to la source he used it to pass behind the Ferrari and gain the superior inside. there was no slipstreaming effect at all. Trulli's comparison with Monza is like comparing apples and bananas.

wow... dreamer
There is one line, you ever heard the technique where in tight corners like that the driver infront will hesitate to accel, then plant it and get the instant advantage of being on the throttle earlier before the other guy could react.
Seriously, you are wack, same position as if he had no cut the chicane? side by side at the s/f

Some serisouly --- up dreamer people here. Probably never driven in their life or a bunch of fanboys either camp.

so you think that you can insult other posters as dreamers, --- up or fan boys?

oh man, you better see the errors of your way real quick.

LINK

No wonder Ferrari need to do so much work in Friday practice – their tyre temperatures are on a knife-edge.

Small differences in track conditions send them from hero to zero and back again.

The McLaren has a much wider window in which the tyres work and, as we saw in Belgium, when it is wet Ferrari lose tyre temperature quicker than McLaren and the car becomes impossible to drive.

It’s a real problem for them, and difficult to fix through the rest of the season.

It seems to be quite clear now why the McLaren had superior traction and with the cars all having sensors and telemetry McLaren are going to be able to demonstrate the facts at the court. That kind of advantage was earned by good engineering and not gained unfair by the driver!

[mx_tifoso]

FIA official Surinder Thathi, one of the three race stewards of the Belgian GP:

"There was no conspiracy against anybody, McLaren included. We acted professionally and within the FIA rules. Hamilton took a short cut inside of the corner while off the track. We called Hamilton and Raikkonen, looked at the footage and agreed that the offence was punishable. The regulations say that there has to be a drive-through penalty.

We had a choice to mete out a time penalty or 10 grid places in the next Grand Prix race. We opted for the former and handed a time penalty of 25 seconds. ...I was doing my job and I know I acted professionally."

[Belatti]

Is race control reporting such incidents routinely to the stewards or are they only reported when race control feels a penalty may be appropriate?

"Following our decision to register our intention to appeal the penalty handed out to Lewis Hamilton by the FIA Stewards at the 2008 Belgian Grand Prix, we hereby confirm that we have now lodged notice of appeal," said team boss Martin Whitmarsh. "From the pit wall, we then asked Race Control to confirm that they were comfortable that Lewis had allowed Kimi to repass, and they confirmed twice that they believed that the position had been given back in a manner that was 'OK'. If Race Control had instead expressed any concern regarding Lewis’s actions at that time, we would have instructed Lewis to allow Kimi to repass for a second time."

Source:
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20747.html

[lebesset]

maybe it was just me , but having pushed hamilton off the track the previous corner kimi seemed to lift off far to early and hamilton just shot pass taking the next corner easily ; to blame hamilton for kimis need to be slower into a corner seems to me to be ludicrous....he was previously travelling faster than hamilton until that point

[DaveKillens]

When the track conditions are rapidly deteriorating, with the rain coming in, Kimi was "feeling" his way, knowing that he had to brake earlier than on dry conditions. The problem is, when and where? Hamilton, following, could see where Kimi braked, see if he was early or late on the brakes, and adjust his own response to come closer to the optimum braking point.. based on Kimi up front. Advantage Hamilton, and that is why he appeared to have superior grip compared to Kimi.

[myurr]

When the track conditions are rapidly deteriorating, with the rain coming in, Kimi was "feeling" his way, knowing that he had to brake earlier than on dry conditions. The problem is, when and where? Hamilton, following, could see where Kimi braked, see if he was early or late on the brakes, and adjust his own response to come closer to the optimum braking point.. based on Kimi up front. Advantage Hamilton, and that is why he appeared to have superior grip compared to Kimi.

What a complete load of expletive. They were almost side by side and had maybe 0.1s of differential in choosing their braking point, far faster than the human mind can deduce that kind of information and react. It is widely reported that the McLaren has superior grip in those conditions, in fact on the next lap Lewis was 10 seconds faster than Massa! Whilst Massa may have been overly cautious, and Lewis is certainly the more talented driver in changeable conditions, but still 10 seconds is a lifetime to drivers at this level.

[WhiteBlue]

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/n ... 4200.shtml

the FIA has confirmed that the court of appeal will hear the case. I am confident that the penalty will be squashed. McLaren will have the data to show that this was a simple case of superior car and driver performance and not an unfair advantage.

[Tehillim]

Great to see Pat Symonds joining the debate: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70457

It's not to his advantage in any way, so I guess he must have felt pretty strongly to comment on it. If this decision is upheld F1 will be the poorer for it, it should be encouraging wheel-to-wheel racing, not penalising it. The rule before Spa was always that if you gained a place by cutting the circuit you gave it back - no talk of relative advantage. Hamilton abided by the rules (and to the satisfaction of the race director!), it is simply wrong to deny him a well-deserved victory.

[shotzski]

Ted Krawitz wrote:
LINK

No wonder Ferrari need to do so much work in Friday practice – their tyre temperatures are on a knife-edge.

Small differences in track conditions send them from hero to zero and back again.

The McLaren has a much wider window in which the tyres work and, as we saw in Belgium, when it is wet Ferrari lose tyre temperature quicker than McLaren and the car becomes impossible to drive.

It’s a real problem for them, and difficult to fix through the rest of the season.


It seems to be quite clear now why the McLaren had superior traction and with the cars all having sensors and telemetry McLaren are going to be able to demonstrate the facts at the court. That kind of advantage was earned by good engineering and not gained unfair by the driver!

It is clearly understood why Mclaren are performing so well in the wet: They are harder on the tyres. So when the rain falls, they're are still sticky and works very efficiently. Remember previous races where Mclaren had to be cautious about their tyres when temperatures are so high? For me, Lewis did not gain any advantage of speed. It's just the way their car is setup. Just my view

[myurr]

We also have the usually slightly but not overtly pro-Ferrari Mark Hughes throwing his weight behind Lewis: http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type ... s&id=43892

The weight of opinion definitely seems to be behind McLaren.

Should also note that in the rest of Ted's notes he makes the point that the FIA appear to be Ferrari biased, and doesn't exactly do much to dispel that thought - if anything trying to back it up with evidence.

[DaveKillens]

Apparently Whiting may also be involved in this farce. He may have given the OK to McLaren during the race, but may have been the one who directed the Stewards to look at the incident. Hmm, if any truth to this, then it becomes messy and complicated.

[Scotracer]

Ted Krawitz wrote:
LINK

No wonder Ferrari need to do so much work in Friday practice – their tyre temperatures are on a knife-edge.

Small differences in track conditions send them from hero to zero and back again.

The McLaren has a much wider window in which the tyres work and, as we saw in Belgium, when it is wet Ferrari lose tyre temperature quicker than McLaren and the car becomes impossible to drive.

It’s a real problem for them, and difficult to fix through the rest of the season.


It seems to be quite clear now why the McLaren had superior traction and with the cars all having sensors and telemetry McLaren are going to be able to demonstrate the facts at the court. That kind of advantage was earned by good engineering and not gained unfair by the driver!

It is clearly understood why Mclaren are performing so well in the wet: They are harder on the tyres. So when the rain falls, they're are still sticky and works very efficiently. Remember previous races where Mclaren had to be cautious about their tyres when temperatures are so high? For me, Lewis did not gain any advantage of speed. It's just the way their car is setup. Just my view

There's two ways to look at that argument. Sure, if the tyre temperatures are high they will have more grip but in the wet, you have to be cautious so working tyres hard will break traction pretty easily and it may make the car harder to drive in the rain.

Conversely the Ferrari isn't as hard on tyres so it will be more stable in wet conditions but lose tyre temperature easily.

[ben_watkins]

Apparently Whiting may also be involved in this farce. He may have given the OK to McLaren during the race, but may have been the one who directed the Stewards to look at the incident. Hmm, if any truth to this, then it becomes messy and complicated.

Yes it was Whiting that gave the OK to McLaren during the "race" but it is he who is cited by the stewards as having reported the incident to them for judgement.

Whiting is an FIA employee. Some people might think he was told to report it to the stewards by someone higher up the FIA food chain, even if he thought there was no need?