Minimum weight - should it be increased?

[lkocev]

In the March testing thread freedom honda posted a link to an arcticle about Dr. Mario Theissen sugesting a need to increase the minimum weight of Formula 1 cars.
http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2009/03/ ... theissen/

He basicaly talks about how the inclusion of KERS into a car drastically influences a cars balance, and how it has forced some drivers to loose weight, and how it litmits there placement of ballast. I think that teams have had the luxury of being able to move ballast around cars for some years now to help them get the correct handling charicteristics, and with the introduction of KERS it makes it harder for them to do that and get even tyre wear.

I was thinking about this and I particularly dont like the idea of increasing the cars minimum weight, and I though about the engine weight rule;
5.4.1 The overall weight of the engine must be a minimum of 95kg.

I'm pretty sure that 95kg was also the minimum weight of the engine, when V10's were allowed. What I would have rather suggested is that the minimum engine weight decrease by 10kg or so. I dont think that it is unreasonable to assume that if a V10 can be made as light as 95kg (and im sure they could have made them lighter, other wise they would never have restricted them to 95kg in the first place) then a V8 should be able to be made at least 10kg lighter...

It is just a though and I really just want to read other peoples opinions about this scince it has been causing such a problem for the teams running KERS. Any thoughs would be appreciated...

-Lazo

[walter]

minimum engine weight was a half-assed attempt to cut the cost of the engines themselves... the idea was that teams were spending big $$$ to make the lightest possible engines. However, I believe that 95kg with the restricted materials is still a very light.

My concern with the idea of an increased weight is that the more mass you have moving, the more potential energy that car has, which could lead to more dangerous car-to-car crashes... the drivers don't NEED to lose weight to gain optimal weight distribution. That's the designer's job to compensate for.

All in all this is the first year that the KERS system has been implemented... people should stop spelling doom so much and spend more effort trying to take advantage of the formula.

[lkocev]

My concern with the idea of an increased weight is that the more mass you have moving, the more potential energy that car has, which could lead to more dangerous car-to-car crashes...

Exactly the same reason I don't particularly like the idea of increasing minimum weight... Anyone else wanna weight in???

[ISLAMATRON]

the engines aint changing till 2013? or so and even then they will be smaller so i doubt the minimum weight of 605kg will be changing anytime soon, as long as they have even 1 kg of ballast the minimum should not be changed.

Theissin even went as far as saying 650kg!?!?!?

the tires will be changed though, especially if they ban refueling.

[McMacca]

Maybe its bridgestone we should be looking at, or to be more specific the behaviour of the rear tyres. I seem to remember Renault R25 /R26 being very rearwardly biased, and the Michelin tyres holding out. Seems the bridgestones just wont take the same abuse. I remember a specific race where Alonso was being chased by the German, and although MS was closing under braking the Alonso always had better traction out of the corners (think it might have been monza).

I'm digressing though, the point is if the tyres were constructed to take more rearward bias it would help a lot, rather than changing the minimum weight limit.

[Belatti]

Theissen said that? I cant believe he is that stupid!

"change minimum weight because I cant get a good balance with out moving ballast"

What a lack of creativity.

F1 cars should weight 500Kg.

[Scotracer]

It's hard to reduce the weight further of the cars with the inclusion of KERS. The 95kg min weight for the engines is quite necessary to make sure they last 3 weekends...and is still ridiculously light for a 2.4 V8.

605kg is already too heavy I think but it's hard to reduce it further. They would have to allow more exotic materials and different techniques which would really drive costs up. 650kg is far too heavy IMO and in this age of green-ness, surely less weight the better? If they increase the weight of the cars they must increase the torque from the engine accordingly.

[Jersey Tom]

I see nothing wrong with raising the minimum weight.

[Fil]

if increasing the weight lessens the negative impact of the weight of KERS then i'm all for it.
the smarter option would be to increase the power and length of use of KERS tho.

[ISLAMATRON]

if increasing the weight lessens the negative impact of the weight of KERS then i'm all for it.
the smarter option would be to increase the power and length of use of KERS tho.

only if that can be done without further increasing the weight of the KERS system.

[DaveKillens]

Wow, this is a perennial problem for all engineers. This old fart has heard this argument ever since I can remember.
All teams operate under the same rules, so all share this problem. And if you're struggling while others have less problems, then that's what the technical aspect of motor racing is all about. Some teams come up with workable solutions, while others struggle. Witness the 2005 season where tire regulation changes crippled Ferrari's entire season. These things happen, and teams have to adapt to the circumstances.

Heck, if Theissen feels a need to increase weight, he can. The regulations only specify a minimum weight. Why should other teams be hit with this when it's BMW's problem?

As a side note, I doubt if Brawn would accept such a proposal by Theissen.

[Jersey Tom]

It is definitely not just BMW's problem. Mario (apparently) is just the only one that's spoken of it.

You want to be able to use as much ballast as possible. KERS is a weight hit to any team.

[fatburner]

That is a good question.I think it is not about the weight only.I would like to see F1 for all kind of sportsmen, not only for 155 cm tall dwarfs weighing around 55 kilograms.It is not good when talented drivers fall out of the game because they are too tall(usually it means that they are also heavier).Every cockpit should be ready to seat ~190 cm "FIA dummy" or sth., in a way that gives no advantage for the shorter driver.As going fast is very demanding, it automatically rules out possibility that some fat paydrivers will easily get the drive instead of fit racers.

So the minimum weight should be increased,but there is no need to end up like IRL monsters some years ago(around 700 kg or so).Increasing the minimum weight by 20 kg could improve the situation for drivers and engineers.Also,a heavier car needs longer braking distance and could slightly improve overtaking.Although,there are other and more reasonable ways to do that...


As only the cars using KERS seem to suffer,increased weight rule should not apply to teams/cars that are not running it.Even more,as long as teams are basically throwing away the batteries after every run,modern "green" F1 should not advantage that kind of technology.Have a standard flywheel system-then talk about green F1.During the turbo era,there were different minimum weight regulations for normally aspirated and turbo cars.If KERS becomes to be very effective but unaffordable for weaker teams,I found that as part of the solution.

Maybe we can see a increased minimum weight anyway,possibly after some severe accident(think wide front wings,KERS) to make cars stronger,despite that more mass could not be helpful in some cases.

[WhiteBlue]

I agree wit the tyre solution and the FIA has already said that they got the tyres wrong this year. So you can bet your old woolly hat that a weight increase will not come. The tech regs are set in stone for class 1. They will only change to adress an unforseen and otherwise uncurable problem of which the traction distribution isn't one.

People will just love fatter rear tyres, if that is the solution.

[Henning]

How about having minimum car weight without driver, but then a minimum driver weight?

If you have the minimum driver weight of 100kg to include their racing seat that would stop the balast issue and help F1 steer clear of becoming a "Jockey" formula (I'm talking about horse racing, not underwear, although with current events you might suggest F1 is going to be pants soon)