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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 13 Feb 2019, 21:50
by 63l8qrrfy6
Tommy Cookers wrote: ↑11 Feb 2019, 22:55
subcritical71 wrote: ↑11 Feb 2019, 20:15
....I cannot imagine it adds significant weight ....
steel is 3 times the density of aluminium alloy
(and a steel piston 33% as thick as an alloy piston won't be stiff enough to behave properly)
but 'fortunately' for the steel piston the engines are limited to about 12000 rpm - so they can stand steel's extra weight
Keep in mind that moment of area goes up with the cube of the height and only increases linearly with thickness. Steel pistons with thin tall ribs are just as light and stiff as aluminium pistons.
Also, steel's young modulus is roughly 3 times that of aluminium so any steel feature of the piston subjected to uniaxial loading can be just as stiff as aluminium for the same mass.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 13 Feb 2019, 22:18
by Tommy Cookers
Mudflap wrote: ↑13 Feb 2019, 21:50
.... Steel pistons with thin tall ribs are just as light and stiff as aluminium pistons.
.....Also, steel's young modulus is roughly 3 times that of aluminium so any steel feature of the piston subjected to uniaxial loading can be just as stiff as aluminium for the same mass.
do steel pistons with thin tall ribs making them as light and stiff as aluminium pistons exist ?
do pistons with design dominated by deflection under axial loading exist ?
anyway people seem to agree that these engines are able to tolerate a bit more piston weight
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 13 Feb 2019, 22:48
by 63l8qrrfy6
Tommy Cookers wrote: ↑13 Feb 2019, 22:18
Mudflap wrote: ↑13 Feb 2019, 21:50
.... Steel pistons with thin tall ribs are just as light and stiff as aluminium pistons.
.....Also, steel's young modulus is roughly 3 times that of aluminium so any steel feature of the piston subjected to uniaxial loading can be just as stiff as aluminium for the same mass.
do steel pistons with thin tall ribs making them as light and stiff as aluminium pistons exist ?
Of course.
do pistons with design dominated by deflection under axial loading exist ?
Dominated no - the main loading is bending about the piston pin. But certain features can be approximated to be loaded axially (such as the ribs supporting the piston skirt which are loaded axially by the thrust force)
anyway people seem to agree that these engines are able to tolerate a bit more piston weight.
They can probably tolerate a bit more piston weight, but the issue is that every extra gram over the minimum FIA prescribed mass means an increase in bearing, crank, rod, pin and piston loads, increase in friction and an increase in engine inertia.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 14 Feb 2019, 15:06
by seezung
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 14 Feb 2019, 15:17
by subcritical71
Mudflap wrote: ↑13 Feb 2019, 22:48
They can probably tolerate a bit more piston weight, but the issue is that every extra gram over the minimum FIA prescribed mass means an increase in bearing, crank, rod, pin and piston loads, increase in friction and an increase in engine inertia.
I know practically zilch about reciprocating engine design, so please bare with me. Even if the pistons are a bit heavier (than the FIA minimum), wouldn't some of the concerns you highlight be mitigated by the actual max race/qualy RPM being no where near the maximum allowed RPM (as dictated by the FIA)? To answer my own question, maybe, it could be that since the engines are only running up to ~12.5KRPM that they have already lowered the design in the other parts and by adding the weight they have the knock on effect of adding weight everywhere else to compensate.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 14 Feb 2019, 23:14
by Tzk
It's about efficiency. You want as little weight as possible on the pistons and connecting rods, as this is wasted energy in a energy (fuel) limited formula. So in a perfect world you would reach the minimum weight, just as the teams try to with the whole car.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 15 Feb 2019, 12:13
by Juzh
Pretty much the same as last year.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 17 Feb 2019, 01:58
by LM10
What do you guys think? Has Ferrari's ERS sytem been copied? I'm pretty sure it would have been a quite hard task, had everything been kept secret. But obviously someone wanted to spread it. There is no other explanation for the news about a second sensor monitoring, for example. Normally such things shouldn't leak.
Another question: Is it true that last season Charlie Whiting went to the headquarters of Mercedes to convince them that Ferrari's ERS system was legal? Is this some news I missed or nonsense? I read this in some comment section.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 17 Feb 2019, 13:17
by saviour stivala
LM10 wrote: ↑17 Feb 2019, 01:58
What do you guys think? Has Ferrari's ERS sytem been copied? I'm pretty sure it would have been a quite hard task, had everything been kept secret. But obviously someone wanted to spread it. There is no other explanation for the news about a second sensor monitoring, for example. Normally such things shouldn't leak.
Another question: Is it true that last season Charlie Whiting went to the headquarters of Mercedes to convince them that Ferrari's ERS system was legal? Is this some news I missed or nonsense? I read this in some comment section.
Charlie Whiting went to the headquarters of Mercedes to convince them that FERRARI's ERS system was legal????
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 17 Feb 2019, 15:05
by LM10
saviour stivala wrote: ↑17 Feb 2019, 13:17
LM10 wrote: ↑17 Feb 2019, 01:58
What do you guys think? Has Ferrari's ERS sytem been copied? I'm pretty sure it would have been a quite hard task, had everything been kept secret. But obviously someone wanted to spread it. There is no other explanation for the news about a second sensor monitoring, for example. Normally such things shouldn't leak.
Another question: Is it true that last season Charlie Whiting went to the headquarters of Mercedes to convince them that Ferrari's ERS system was legal? Is this some news I missed or nonsense? I read this in some comment section.
Charlie Whiting went to the headquarters of Mercedes to convince them that FERRARI's ERS system was legal????
Well, that's my question too.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 17 Feb 2019, 20:16
by Tzk
Uhm, why should he do that? If mercedes believes that a competitors car isn‘t in accordsnce to the rules, mercedes can protest the competitor and provide evidence.
It is simply not the FIAs or FOMs job to explain competitors why a car is legal.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 17 Feb 2019, 23:27
by LM10
Tzk wrote: ↑17 Feb 2019, 20:16
Uhm, why should he do that? If mercedes believes that a competitors car isn‘t in accordsnce to the rules, mercedes can protest the competitor and provide evidence.
It is simply not the FIAs or FOMs job to explain competitors why a car is legal.
I don’t know. That would be the point at which conspiracy theories would join the show.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 17 Feb 2019, 23:34
by dans79
LM10 wrote: ↑17 Feb 2019, 23:27
I don’t know. That would be the point at which conspiracy theories would join the show.
The real conspiracy theorist is the person that posted whatever you read that said Charlie went out of his way to explain why Ferrari was legal.
1. That's not Charlie's job
2. By doing so he would probably have to explain a good deal about how Ferrari's system works.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 17 Feb 2019, 23:38
by LM10
dans79 wrote: ↑17 Feb 2019, 23:34
LM10 wrote: ↑17 Feb 2019, 23:27
I don’t know. That would be the point at which conspiracy theories would join the show.
The real conspiracy theorist is the person that posted whatever you read that said Charlie went out of his way to explain why Ferrari was legal.
1. That's not Charlie's job
2. By doing so he would probably have to explain a good deal about how Ferrari's system works.
I agree with you. I was just quite confused at first and didn’t find any single article whatsoever anyway. Just wanted to make clear if I missed anything.
Would have been bizarre and ridiculous. The imagination on it’s own is.
Back on factual topic!
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 18 Feb 2019, 00:18
by zibby43