Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Capharol
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Capharol » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:44 pm

gandharva wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:06 pm
Autobild
That's where I stopped reading.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Strive for continuous improvement, instead of perfection.

godlameroso
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:54 pm

Autobild is where the Mercedes 12hp rumor came from? So better drivability out of slow corners, and better fuel/lube from Shell. The low speed cornering was the SF71's weakness relative to Mercedes.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

rgava
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by rgava » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:22 am

Incidentally, last week I had the opportunity to get first hand confirmation of a long lasting rumour discussed several times here:
Ferrari engine does have steel pistons, and it's not the only one.
Honda is also using steel pistons from the same source.
They are not 3D printed, but steel is the material used since some time now.

hurril
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by hurril » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:40 am

rgava wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:22 am
Incidentally, last week I had the opportunity to get first hand confirmation of a long lasting rumour discussed several times here:
Ferrari engine does have steel pistons, and it's not the only one.
Honda is also using steel pistons from the same source.
They are not 3D printed, but steel is the material used since some time now.
But what about the talk here about that not being an allowed material to use? (As in: I don't doubt what you claim, I'm more interested in that counterclaim.)

rgava
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by rgava » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:15 pm

hurril wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:40 am
But what about the talk here about that not being an allowed material to use? (As in: I don't doubt what you claim, I'm more interested in that counterclaim.)
Well, if it were not an allowed material then Ferrari would have been disqualified last year as they were racing their engine with steel pistons

trinidefender
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by trinidefender » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:25 pm

hurril wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:40 am
rgava wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:22 am
Incidentally, last week I had the opportunity to get first hand confirmation of a long lasting rumour discussed several times here:
Ferrari engine does have steel pistons, and it's not the only one.
Honda is also using steel pistons from the same source.
They are not 3D printed, but steel is the material used since some time now.
But what about the talk here about that not being an allowed material to use? (As in: I don't doubt what you claim, I'm more interested in that counterclaim.)
Who said steel wasn't allowed?

hurril
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by hurril » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:30 pm

trinidefender wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:25 pm
hurril wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:40 am
rgava wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:22 am
Incidentally, last week I had the opportunity to get first hand confirmation of a long lasting rumour discussed several times here:
Ferrari engine does have steel pistons, and it's not the only one.
Honda is also using steel pistons from the same source.
They are not 3D printed, but steel is the material used since some time now.
But what about the talk here about that not being an allowed material to use? (As in: I don't doubt what you claim, I'm more interested in that counterclaim.)
Who said steel wasn't allowed?
It has been up a number of times. Doesn't matter.

Nonserviam85
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Nonserviam85 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:50 pm

rgava wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:22 am
Incidentally, last week I had the opportunity to get first hand confirmation of a long lasting rumour discussed several times here:
Ferrari engine does have steel pistons, and it's not the only one.
Honda is also using steel pistons from the same source.
They are not 3D printed, but steel is the material used since some time now.
Interesting, is the whole piston made from steel though or only the crown?

rgava
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by rgava » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:09 pm

Nonserviam85 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:50 pm
rgava wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:22 am
Incidentally, last week I had the opportunity to get first hand confirmation of a long lasting rumour discussed several times here:
Ferrari engine does have steel pistons, and it's not the only one.
Honda is also using steel pistons from the same source.
They are not 3D printed, but steel is the material used since some time now.
Interesting, is the whole piston made from steel though or only the crown?
The whole piston is what I've been told. Forged and post-machined

subcritical71
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:37 pm

The 2019 rules have no such restriction on the use of steel for the piston;
5.16 Materials and construction – General :
5.16.1 Unless explicitly permitted for a specific application, the following materials may not be used anywhere on the power unit :
a) Magnesium based alloys.
b) Metal Matrix Composites (MMC’s).
c) Intermetallic materials.
d) Alloys containing more than 5% by weight of Platinum, Ruthenium, Iridium or Rhenium.
e) Copper based alloys containing more than 2.75% Beryllium.
f) Any other alloy class containing more than 0.25% Beryllium.
g) Tungsten base alloys.
h) Ceramics and ceramic matrix composites.

5.16.2 The restrictions in Article 5.16.1 do not apply to coatings provided the total coating thickness does not exceed 25% of the section thickness of the underlying base material in all axes. In all cases, other than under Article 5.16.3(b), the relevant coating must not exceed 0.8mm. Where the coating is based on Gold, Platinum, Ruthenium, Iridium or Rhenium, the coating thickness must not exceed 0.035mm.

5.16.3 The restrictions in Article 5.16.1(h) do not apply to the following applications :
a) Any component whose primary purpose is for electrical or thermal insulation.
b) Any coating whose primary purpose is for thermal insulation of the outside of the exhaust system.
5.16.4 Magnesium based alloys, where permitted, must be available on a non-exclusive basis and under normal commercial terms to all competitors. Only those alloys covered by ISO16220 or ISO3116 and approved by the FIA may be used.

5.17 Materials and construction – Components :
5.17.1 Pistons must respect Article 5.16. Titanium alloys are not permitted.

godlameroso
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:53 pm

Now that that's out of the bag, how the hell do you keep the ringlands from coking? Are there oil passageways in the piston crown for additional cooling? How do they keep the weight down? I'm always amazed by human engineering.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Maritimer
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Maritimer » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:06 pm

Constant weep of oil to the rings, keep the surfaces immersed and cooled? Would also lend itself to oil burning if that's still something they want to maximise.

subcritical71
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:15 pm

I don't really understand the pros/cons of steel vs Al, so I googled it. I came across this article (https://www.autosteel.org/-/media/files ... itter.ashx), which looks like it is from a steel symposium of some sort so take that for what its worth.

Anyway, interesting that Mahle is mentioned and used as source. As well, here are the listed Pros/Cons to steel pistons;
PROS (compared to cast aluminum pistons)
 Higher cylinder pressure limit
 Higher piston temperature limit
 Reduced top land height possible (reduced crevice volume)
 May offer friction advantages particularly in iron block/liner engines

CONS (compared to cast aluminum pistons)
 Higher cost
 Weight (current)
 Cooling oil flow requirement due to higher piston temperature
 Potential to increase detonation sensitivity in gasoline applications
So I'm not sure the first two cons are really relevant as I cannot imagine it adds significant weight, but last two would be interesting to see how they get around that.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Tommy Cookers » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:55 pm

subcritical71 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:15 pm
....I cannot imagine it adds significant weight ....
steel is 3 times the density of aluminium alloy
(and a steel piston 33% as thick as an alloy piston won't be stiff enough to behave properly)

but 'fortunately' for the steel piston the engines are limited to about 12000 rpm - so they can stand steel's extra weight

gruntguru
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by gruntguru » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:03 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:55 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:15 pm
....I cannot imagine it adds significant weight ....
. . . (and a steel piston 33% as thick as an alloy piston won't be stiff enough to behave properly). . . .
I imagine the piston crown underside must have extensive "ribbing" or perhaps a honeycomb structure to give it "thickness" without weight. This would also increase surface area for heat transfer to the cooling oil.
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