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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 02 Jan 2021, 10:24
by ryaan2904
ryaan2904 wrote: ↑30 Dec 2020, 06:22
FDD wrote: ↑30 Dec 2020, 01:36
"The new thermal engine is already giving about fifteen horsepower more than the "deflated" unit of 2020 and the goal is to reach thirty before the homologation date thanks to the introduction of a new intercooler and the improvement of the hybrid with an MGU-K that will be able to increase the delivery time of electric power over the lap."
I read this one too. I think this article is bullshit. Just the words of someone twisting already available knowledge and spewing his own crap out of it.
I stand corrected. According to ChronoGP, earlier bench tests in September were giving excellent results, exceeding 60 hp even. Later on though, when endurance tests were conducted, the PU had reliability issues. Just to ensure that the engine is able to last atleast 5000 km, that bump in power has been reduced to just 20 hp with Ferrari pushing for 30. Apparently, those exhausts are a big crutch for that engine.
It is hard being a Ferrari fan.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 02 Jan 2021, 12:54
by Big Tea
ryaan2904 wrote: ↑02 Jan 2021, 10:24
ryaan2904 wrote: ↑30 Dec 2020, 06:22
FDD wrote: ↑30 Dec 2020, 01:36
"The new thermal engine is already giving about fifteen horsepower more than the "deflated" unit of 2020 and the goal is to reach thirty before the homologation date thanks to the introduction of a new intercooler and the improvement of the hybrid with an MGU-K that will be able to increase the delivery time of electric power over the lap."
I read this one too. I think this article is bullshit. Just the words of someone twisting already available knowledge and spewing his own crap out of it.
I stand corrected. According to ChronoGP, earlier bench tests in September were giving excellent results, exceeding 60 hp even. Later on though, when endurance tests were conducted, the PU had reliability issues. Just to ensure that the engine is able to last atleast 5000 km, that bump in power has been reduced to just 20 hp with Ferrari pushing for 30. Apparently, those exhausts are a big crutch for that engine.
It is hard being a Ferrari fan.
Without intending to throw a spanner in the works, an engine on the bench does not have to meet any regs.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 02 Jan 2021, 14:08
by ryaan2904
Big Tea wrote: ↑02 Jan 2021, 12:54
ryaan2904 wrote: ↑02 Jan 2021, 10:24
ryaan2904 wrote: ↑30 Dec 2020, 06:22
I read this one too. I think this article is bullshit. Just the words of someone twisting already available knowledge and spewing his own crap out of it.
I stand corrected. According to ChronoGP, earlier bench tests in September were giving excellent results, exceeding 60 hp even. Later on though, when endurance tests were conducted, the PU had reliability issues. Just to ensure that the engine is able to last atleast 5000 km, that bump in power has been reduced to just 20 hp with Ferrari pushing for 30. Apparently, those exhausts are a big crutch for that engine.
It is hard being a Ferrari fan.
Without intending to throw a spanner in the works, an engine on the bench does not have to meet any regs.
Doesn't matter tho, its max 25 hp for us Ferrari fans while Mercedes and honda boast big gains.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 02 Jan 2021, 15:00
by godlameroso
ryaan2904 wrote: ↑02 Jan 2021, 10:24
ryaan2904 wrote: ↑30 Dec 2020, 06:22
FDD wrote: ↑30 Dec 2020, 01:36
"The new thermal engine is already giving about fifteen horsepower more than the "deflated" unit of 2020 and the goal is to reach thirty before the homologation date thanks to the introduction of a new intercooler and the improvement of the hybrid with an MGU-K that will be able to increase the delivery time of electric power over the lap."
I read this one too. I think this article is bullshit. Just the words of someone twisting already available knowledge and spewing his own crap out of it.
I stand corrected. According to ChronoGP, earlier bench tests in September were giving excellent results, exceeding 60 hp even. Later on though, when endurance tests were conducted, the PU had reliability issues. Just to ensure that the engine is able to last atleast 5000 km, that bump in power has been reduced to just 20 hp with Ferrari pushing for 30. Apparently, those exhausts are a big crutch for that engine.
It is hard being a Ferrari fan.
Perhaps it's merely a more compact turbo, because of its compactness, Ferrari is trying to raise the performance of the intercooler which will improve power and reliability.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 03 Jan 2021, 00:15
by FDD
Ferrari's engine engineer (and other):
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-me ... n=widget-1
Make your own judgment
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 03 Jan 2021, 15:05
by JordanMugen
tangodjango wrote: ↑24 Dec 2020, 09:07
if they could develop such a powerful engine without resorting to grey areas in one year that too in the middle of a pandemic,
why did they not do it since 2018?
Because they were doing other things back then, of course.
That's like saying why did F1 cars in 2003 have simplistic bargeboards, why they didn't they put on sophisticated 2007 or 2020 bargeboards already!
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 03 Jan 2021, 15:16
by tangodjango
JordanMugen wrote: ↑03 Jan 2021, 15:05
tangodjango wrote: ↑24 Dec 2020, 09:07
if they could develop such a powerful engine without resorting to grey areas in one year that too in the middle of a pandemic,
why did they not do it since 2018?
Because they were doing other things back then, of course.
That's like saying why did F1 cars in 2003 have simplistic bargeboards, why they didn't they put on sophisticated 2007 or 2020 bargeboards already!
That's a completely meaningless example.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 03 Jan 2021, 17:09
by 63l8qrrfy6
Not really meaningless, I think JM has a point.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 03 Jan 2021, 17:18
by the EDGE
Mudflap wrote: ↑03 Jan 2021, 17:09
Not really meaningless, I think JM has a point.
Not really.. everyone can see the development direction of aero from other teams who each copy and develop each other’s ideas to get to where they are now (not to mention changes of regulation)
They can’t do that with an engine. Ferrari have been developing their engine in a different direction to other teams. First they must change direction, then they must catch up. That’s doable, but not easy
After all, 3 manufactures have been trying to catch Mercedes for 7 years, it’s taken Honda 5 years to catch Renault
To think Ferrari can suddenly jump the aforementioned in 1 year is a real leap of faith. Catch... maybe. Beat... unlikely
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 03 Jan 2021, 21:07
by tangodjango
Mudflap wrote: ↑03 Jan 2021, 17:09
Not really meaningless, I think JM has a point.
While I defer to your opinion the point I wished to make was that if they didn't have a backup engine development program in case they were caught (and if they didn't that's just terrible management) at a sufficient level of maturity for them to bring a better engine than they did this year then I have a hard time believing they can bring 50 hp which would pretty much bring them up to class leading in 2020 levels. 30 is probably very believable. After all if it was just chucking money and resources at the problem then Honda would have matched the best years ago (given they fixed their lack of experience and brought in atleast some level of additional expertise from outside by 2017)
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 03 Jan 2021, 23:45
by Big Tea
tangodjango wrote: ↑03 Jan 2021, 21:07
Mudflap wrote: ↑03 Jan 2021, 17:09
Not really meaningless, I think JM has a point.
While I defer to your opinion the point I wished to make was that if they didn't have a backup engine development program in case they were caught (and if they didn't that's just terrible management) at a sufficient level of maturity for them to bring a better engine than they did this year then I have a hard time believing they can bring 50 hp which would pretty much bring them up to class leading in 2020 levels. 30 is probably very believable. After all if it was just chucking money and resources at the problem then Honda would have matched the best years ago (given they fixed their lack of experience and brought in atleast some level of additional expertise from outside by 2017)
As I said earlier in the thread though, no doubt they started by 'pinching a bit' past the grey area, which was hardly anything, then a little more and a little more.
It was probably not even considered 'proper' cheating, and accepted as the norm. It probably hit home hard and fast when they were pinged and told Oi!, stop that.
They would not have a contingency plan for something that was not thought to be beyond the limit.
As in if you think you may miss a bus or train by 5 or 10 min you have a back up which to go for next, but if you miss it by 20 seconds you stand there feeling foolish because you were confident you would be on it.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 04 Jan 2021, 00:15
by LM10
tangodjango wrote: ↑03 Jan 2021, 21:07
Mudflap wrote: ↑03 Jan 2021, 17:09
Not really meaningless, I think JM has a point.
While I defer to your opinion the point I wished to make was that if they didn't have a backup engine development program in case they were caught (and if they didn't that's just terrible management) at a sufficient level of maturity for them to bring a better engine than they did this year then I have a hard time believing they can bring 50 hp which would pretty much bring them up to class leading in 2020 levels. 30 is probably very believable. After all if it was just chucking money and resources at the problem then Honda would have matched the best years ago (given they fixed their lack of experience and brought in atleast some level of additional expertise from outside by 2017)
How do you know they didn't have a kind of a backup engine development when a big power increase would actually mean exactly that? A part of the regulation changes came very late in the season and another part even came after the season was finished. So being forced to build an engine (even a backup one) and put it in the chassis which at the time of regulation changes was long done and ready aren't ideal factors. But add a full year of further development and the big pressure to bring a significantly improved PU and 50 hp sounds pretty doable.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 04 Jan 2021, 06:05
by ryaan2904
tangodjango wrote: ↑03 Jan 2021, 21:07
Mudflap wrote: ↑03 Jan 2021, 17:09
Not really meaningless, I think JM has a point.
While I defer to your opinion the point I wished to make was that if they didn't have a backup engine development program in case they were caught (and if they didn't that's just terrible management) at a sufficient level of maturity for them to bring a better engine than they did this year then I have a hard time believing they can bring 50 hp which would pretty much bring them up to class leading in 2020 levels. 30 is probably very believable. After all if it was just chucking money and resources at the problem then Honda would have matched the best years ago (given they fixed their lack of experience and brought in atleast some level of additional expertise from outside by 2017)
Theres no backup engine dev program in this thing. You choose a development direction and work on it. There's no turning back from it, its not aero we're talking about here. Running two different programs will use up too much time, effort and especially Money.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 04 Jan 2021, 07:54
by tangodjango
ryaan2904 wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021, 06:05
tangodjango wrote: ↑03 Jan 2021, 21:07
Mudflap wrote: ↑03 Jan 2021, 17:09
Not really meaningless, I think JM has a point.
While I defer to your opinion the point I wished to make was that if they didn't have a backup engine development program in case they were caught (and if they didn't that's just terrible management) at a sufficient level of maturity for them to bring a better engine than they did this year then I have a hard time believing they can bring 50 hp which would pretty much bring them up to class leading in 2020 levels. 30 is probably very believable. After all if it was just chucking money and resources at the problem then Honda would have matched the best years ago (given they fixed their lack of experience and brought in atleast some level of additional expertise from outside by 2017)
Theres no backup engine dev program in this thing. You choose a development direction and work on it. There's no turning back from it, its not aero we're talking about here. Running two different programs will use up too much time, effort and especially Money.
You have no way of knowing that.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 04 Jan 2021, 09:03
by Stu
tangodjango wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021, 07:54
ryaan2904 wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021, 06:05
tangodjango wrote: ↑03 Jan 2021, 21:07
While I defer to your opinion the point I wished to make was that if they didn't have a backup engine development program in case they were caught (and if they didn't that's just terrible management) at a sufficient level of maturity for them to bring a better engine than they did this year then I have a hard time believing they can bring 50 hp which would pretty much bring them up to class leading in 2020 levels. 30 is probably very believable. After all if it was just chucking money and resources at the problem then Honda would have matched the best years ago (given they fixed their lack of experience and brought in atleast some level of additional expertise from outside by 2017)
Theres no backup engine dev program in this thing. You choose a development direction and work on it. There's no turning back from it, its not aero we're talking about here. Running two different programs will use up too much time, effort and especially Money.
You have no way of knowing that.
We do, real development requires test-bed running. Unless they are using a single test-cylinder test-bed running is limited by the regulations now (and was last year too, I believe).
They (manufacturers) have tendency to use single cylinder testing to ‘prove’ the simulation work that is done during design, which then has to be further proven on a multi-cylinder test engine (harmonics, intra-cylinder effects, etc). The multi-cylinder test bed time is required to develop gearbox, oil system, cooling system and intercooling for the car.
They cannot ‘do’ concept-after-concept as part of a multi cylinder test program.