Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
FDD
FDD
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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tangodjango wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:23 pm
LM10 wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:14 pm
MachineCo. wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:18 pm
I believe it should be doable. They came into this season with a hastily put together engine due to the late reg changes at the end of last year and couldn't implement any updates due first to the covid lockdown and then to the engine freeze. Next year's engine should have all the tricks meant for this year plus any new tech already planned for next year. If they can't increase HP by at least 70HP over this year's engine, I'd bet on closer to 80, then they're not going to be near the top end of the grid.
Binotto told that he believes the Ferrari PU is going to be behind Mercedes, but in front of Honda and Renault.

And overall they’re aiming for 3rd in the constructor’s championship. Obviously it’s unrealistic beating Redbull and Mercedes, but they know that themselves and aren’t desperately trying to go for it.
I believe that quote should be interpreted with regards to this year's power levels. Binotto has no way of knowing how much of an upgrade either of Honda/Renault will bring next year and to be honest both Honda/Renault's development work since 2018 looks mighty impressive compared to Ferrari in hindsight considering they have plenty of time in ironing out and optimising what they have been working on for years as opposed to a new development program which Ferrari are bringing and which will in all likelihood have teething issues.
You are absolutely right, Mattia was talking for increase of 50HP in respect to their PU from this year. 50HP or more or maybe less we have to wait to see.

Xwang
Xwang
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

tangodjango wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:23 pm
LM10 wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:14 pm
MachineCo. wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:18 pm
I believe it should be doable. They came into this season with a hastily put together engine due to the late reg changes at the end of last year and couldn't implement any updates due first to the covid lockdown and then to the engine freeze. Next year's engine should have all the tricks meant for this year plus any new tech already planned for next year. If they can't increase HP by at least 70HP over this year's engine, I'd bet on closer to 80, then they're not going to be near the top end of the grid.
Binotto told that he believes the Ferrari PU is going to be behind Mercedes, but in front of Honda and Renault.

And overall they’re aiming for 3rd in the constructor’s championship. Obviously it’s unrealistic beating Redbull and Mercedes, but they know that themselves and aren’t desperately trying to go for it.
I believe that quote should be interpreted with regards to this year's power levels. Binotto has no way of knowing how much of an upgrade either of Honda/Renault will bring next year and to be honest both Honda/Renault's development work since 2018 looks mighty impressive compared to Ferrari in hindsight considering they have plenty of time in ironing out and optimising what they have been working on for years as opposed to a new development program which Ferrari are bringing and which will in all likelihood have teething issues.
I think that everyone involved in F1 should have an idea of how much rivals teams are able to increase their performances.
If they are not able to do that, they will always be behind because they have based their project on the performance level "measured" the last year instead of taking into account the expected performance of rivals teams for the next year.
I'm still learning English so please excuse me if my English is not good enough and feel free to correct me via PM if you want.

toraabe
toraabe
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ryaan2904 wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:12 am
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:35 pm
FDD wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:26 pm
According to ChronoGP Ferrari plans to increase the power of the engine for 50 HP.
So it would be 2019 power + ~10hp. That would mean Ferrari would essentially gain 1.6 seconds over 2020, or about half a second over 2019, or dead even with 2020 Mercedes. Ferrari claimed their chassis was .5 seconds faster because of the aero, but it lost over a second from the engine. So to regain that, plus a bit on top, and if they improve the chassis despite the downforce sapping regulations, then they should take a nice jump forward.

Mercedes is claiming to bring 30hp and this year's engine could certainly match 2019 Ferrari. So power unit gap will be roughly 20hp or just over what Honda was missing to Mercedes this year. Possibly less, possibly more.
Actually, no.
Mercedes is only bringing an intake upgrade and more focusing towards engine reliability and cooling. The goal is not so much about outright bhp count of the engine, but to increase the variability and reliability of the engine.
So I'd say 20 bhp, 25 if you are optimistic. But the engine will be more reliable, as in, its effectiveness under different race conditions will be improved.
Exactly. The power is there. They just have to make the engine more durable in the higher power settings. I also expect Renault to be in front of Honda and Ferrari. I expect Sauber or Alfa Romeo to use Renault engines in 2022. Would be nice

LM10
LM10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

tangodjango wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:23 pm
LM10 wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:14 pm
MachineCo. wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:18 pm
I believe it should be doable. They came into this season with a hastily put together engine due to the late reg changes at the end of last year and couldn't implement any updates due first to the covid lockdown and then to the engine freeze. Next year's engine should have all the tricks meant for this year plus any new tech already planned for next year. If they can't increase HP by at least 70HP over this year's engine, I'd bet on closer to 80, then they're not going to be near the top end of the grid.
Binotto told that he believes the Ferrari PU is going to be behind Mercedes, but in front of Honda and Renault.

And overall they’re aiming for 3rd in the constructor’s championship. Obviously it’s unrealistic beating Redbull and Mercedes, but they know that themselves and aren’t desperately trying to go for it.
I believe that quote should be interpreted with regards to this year's power levels. Binotto has no way of knowing how much of an upgrade either of Honda/Renault will bring next year and to be honest both Honda/Renault's development work since 2018 looks mighty impressive compared to Ferrari in hindsight considering they have plenty of time in ironing out and optimising what they have been working on for years as opposed to a new development program which Ferrari are bringing and which will in all likelihood have teething issues.
I don't know what you mean. Binotto told that he believes the Ferrari PU (which clearly was the weakest in 2020) is going to be second best in 2021. How can you interpret that quote in regards to 2020 when Ferrari surely wasn't in front of Renault and Honda?

Of course he can't know how much others will improve, but it's only a thought from him just like when someone on this forum thinks something - with the difference of Binotto having more knowledge and experience.
If he turns out to be wrong or not, we'll see next season.

ryaan2904
ryaan2904
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Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:45 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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LM10 wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:40 pm
tangodjango wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:23 pm
LM10 wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:14 pm


Binotto told that he believes the Ferrari PU is going to be behind Mercedes, but in front of Honda and Renault.

And overall they’re aiming for 3rd in the constructor’s championship. Obviously it’s unrealistic beating Redbull and Mercedes, but they know that themselves and aren’t desperately trying to go for it.
I believe that quote should be interpreted with regards to this year's power levels. Binotto has no way of knowing how much of an upgrade either of Honda/Renault will bring next year and to be honest both Honda/Renault's development work since 2018 looks mighty impressive compared to Ferrari in hindsight considering they have plenty of time in ironing out and optimising what they have been working on for years as opposed to a new development program which Ferrari are bringing and which will in all likelihood have teething issues.
I don't know what you mean. Binotto told that he believes the Ferrari PU (which clearly was the weakest in 2020) is going to be second best in 2021. How can you interpret that quote in regards to 2020 when Ferrari surely wasn't in front of Renault and Honda?

Of course he can't know how much others will improve, but it's only a thought from him just like when someone on this forum thinks something - with the difference of Binotto having more knowledge and experience.
If he turns out to be wrong or not, we'll see next season.
Completely agree with this one here. Can't wait for Testing!!
CFD Eyes of Sauron

tangodjango
tangodjango
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Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:38 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

LM10 wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:40 pm
tangodjango wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:23 pm
LM10 wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:14 pm


Binotto told that he believes the Ferrari PU is going to be behind Mercedes, but in front of Honda and Renault.

And overall they’re aiming for 3rd in the constructor’s championship. Obviously it’s unrealistic beating Redbull and Mercedes, but they know that themselves and aren’t desperately trying to go for it.
I believe that quote should be interpreted with regards to this year's power levels. Binotto has no way of knowing how much of an upgrade either of Honda/Renault will bring next year and to be honest both Honda/Renault's development work since 2018 looks mighty impressive compared to Ferrari in hindsight considering they have plenty of time in ironing out and optimising what they have been working on for years as opposed to a new development program which Ferrari are bringing and which will in all likelihood have teething issues.
I don't know what you mean. Binotto told that he believes the Ferrari PU (which clearly was the weakest in 2020) is going to be second best in 2021. How can you interpret that quote in regards to 2020 when Ferrari surely wasn't in front of Renault and Honda?

Of course he can't know how much others will improve, but it's only a thought from him just like when someone on this forum thinks something - with the difference of Binotto having more knowledge and experience.
If he turns out to be wrong or not, we'll see next season.
We'll see. It just sounds like some face saving. If they manage to bring even 30-35 bhp all the time that will be very impressive. If they bring 50 then you have to question what sort of leader Binotto is given he led the engine development in 2018-2019 and why they didn't pursue the same path earlier. Anyway to each their own conclusions.
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

LM10
LM10
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Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:07 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

tangodjango wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:57 pm
LM10 wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:40 pm
tangodjango wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:23 pm

I believe that quote should be interpreted with regards to this year's power levels. Binotto has no way of knowing how much of an upgrade either of Honda/Renault will bring next year and to be honest both Honda/Renault's development work since 2018 looks mighty impressive compared to Ferrari in hindsight considering they have plenty of time in ironing out and optimising what they have been working on for years as opposed to a new development program which Ferrari are bringing and which will in all likelihood have teething issues.
I don't know what you mean. Binotto told that he believes the Ferrari PU (which clearly was the weakest in 2020) is going to be second best in 2021. How can you interpret that quote in regards to 2020 when Ferrari surely wasn't in front of Renault and Honda?

Of course he can't know how much others will improve, but it's only a thought from him just like when someone on this forum thinks something - with the difference of Binotto having more knowledge and experience.
If he turns out to be wrong or not, we'll see next season.
We'll see. It just sounds like some face saving. If they manage to bring even 30-35 bhp all the time that will be very impressive. If they bring 50 then you have to question what sort of leader Binotto is given he led the engine development in 2018-2019 and why they didn't pursue the same path earlier. Anyway to each their own conclusions.
Ferrari had an engine that was rushed to be built after the late regulation changes which hit them the most. They were left with a weak PU without the chances to improve it throughout the season. They were down 50-60 hp to Mercedes. I don't see why they shouldn't be able to recover about 50 hp with a completely new PU including some new ideas and having had a full year to develop it.

Regarding Binotto who was leading the engine department in the past, well, to be honest Ferrari weren't bad after all, were they? Contrary to that, they actually had the strongest PU, no matter if that was achieved by loopholes (which they were totally pushed into by Marchionne) because every team benefits from loopholes. That's what a job of an engineer is all about. They need to be creative and constantly look for areas which could differ them from the rest and give them the edge.

You can't take away the know-how from Ferrari. On their way building the PUs and implementing grey areas they've learnt valuable things. I don't know why some people talk as if Ferrari needs to start from scratch. After all it's the same PU technology going into it's 8. year.

FDD
FDD
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Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:08 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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LM10 wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:19 pm
tangodjango wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:57 pm
LM10 wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:40 pm


I don't know what you mean. Binotto told that he believes the Ferrari PU (which clearly was the weakest in 2020) is going to be second best in 2021. How can you interpret that quote in regards to 2020 when Ferrari surely wasn't in front of Renault and Honda?

Of course he can't know how much others will improve, but it's only a thought from him just like when someone on this forum thinks something - with the difference of Binotto having more knowledge and experience.
If he turns out to be wrong or not, we'll see next season.
We'll see. It just sounds like some face saving. If they manage to bring even 30-35 bhp all the time that will be very impressive. If they bring 50 then you have to question what sort of leader Binotto is given he led the engine development in 2018-2019 and why they didn't pursue the same path earlier. Anyway to each their own conclusions.
Ferrari had an engine that was rushed to be built after the late regulation changes which hit them the most. They were left with a weak PU without the chances to improve it throughout the season. They were down 50-60 hp to Mercedes. I don't see why they shouldn't be able to recover about 50 hp with a completely new PU including some new ideas and having had a full year to develop it.

Regarding Binotto who was leading the engine department in the past, well, to be honest Ferrari weren't bad after all, were they? Contrary to that, they actually had the strongest PU, no matter if that was achieved by loopholes (which they were totally pushed into by Marchionne) because every team benefits from loopholes. That's what a job of an engineer is all about. They need to be creative and constantly look for areas which could differ them from the rest and give them the edge.

You can't take away the know-how from Ferrari. On their way building the PUs and implementing grey areas they've learnt valuable things. I don't know why some people talk as if Ferrari needs to start from scratch. After all it's the same PU technology going into it's 8. year.
Absolutely agree with you
PS MERC also used loopholes and as you said "That's what a job of an engineer is all about. They need to be creative and constantly look for areas which could differ them from the rest and give them the edge."

ryaan2904
ryaan2904
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Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:45 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

tangodjango wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:57 pm
LM10 wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:40 pm
tangodjango wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:23 pm

I believe that quote should be interpreted with regards to this year's power levels. Binotto has no way of knowing how much of an upgrade either of Honda/Renault will bring next year and to be honest both Honda/Renault's development work since 2018 looks mighty impressive compared to Ferrari in hindsight considering they have plenty of time in ironing out and optimising what they have been working on for years as opposed to a new development program which Ferrari are bringing and which will in all likelihood have teething issues.
I don't know what you mean. Binotto told that he believes the Ferrari PU (which clearly was the weakest in 2020) is going to be second best in 2021. How can you interpret that quote in regards to 2020 when Ferrari surely wasn't in front of Renault and Honda?

Of course he can't know how much others will improve, but it's only a thought from him just like when someone on this forum thinks something - with the difference of Binotto having more knowledge and experience.
If he turns out to be wrong or not, we'll see next season.
We'll see. It just sounds like some face saving. If they manage to bring even 30-35 bhp all the time that will be very impressive. If they bring 50 then you have to question what sort of leader Binotto is given he led the engine development in 2018-2019 and why they didn't pursue the same path earlier. Anyway to each their own conclusions.
Look mate, doesn't matter how they did it, Ferrari were THE only team challenging Mercedes for the constructors and drivers title throughout the hybrid era. Not Redbull, not McLaren, not Racing point not Renault.They --- up in 2020, doesn't mean they are bad engineers, but they're bad managers (and bad strategists).
So I totally believe them when they say next year's car AND engine will be much better.
CFD Eyes of Sauron

ryaan2904
ryaan2904
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Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:45 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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https://www.formu1a.uno/ferrari-sf21-la ... etrotreno/

Read this article here. You'll understand why I say that 2020 was a result of bad management/strategical foresight, rather than outright bad engineering.
CFD Eyes of Sauron

tangodjango
tangodjango
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ryaan2904 wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:10 am
https://www.formu1a.uno/ferrari-sf21-la ... etrotreno/

Read this article here. You'll understand why I say that 2020 was a result of bad management/strategical foresight, rather than outright bad engineering.
The quotes from the article backup my conclusions atleast in my view.
"In terms of performance, the development, compared to 2020, is significant. I think we will be competitive again. We will no longer be the worst on the grid. But we cannot know where we are until we see how much the others have progressed. "
He says they won't be last and immediately qualifies it with it being dependent on others, this simply reinforces my view that he is saying it with respect to the engine power levels this year and not next year.
Of course they are going to make a big step, my point is they have no way of knowing whether they will be second best (highly unlikely given Mercedes and Honda will be making big steps) or last. In any case the engine spread next year should not be more than 20 HP maximum.
I am not saying Ferrari are bad engineers even once or that they lack competence. My only question is that if they bring 50 hp they will be almost at the levels of the 2019 engine peak power and much more than the 2018 engine, if they could develop such a powerful engine without resorting to grey areas in one year that too in the middle of a pandemic, why did they not do it since 2018?
I hope you recognise that my opinions or questions are not targeting Ferrari as incompetent, we definitely need a strong Ferrari. My only point is that it's very unlikely they won't be the weakest engine next year unless Renault bring no updates at all and by 2022 they probably should definitely be nipping at the heels of Mercedes or matching/exceeding them in a best case scenario. This is why they agreed to an engine freeze at the beginning of 2022 and not end of 2021.
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

ryaan2904
ryaan2904
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I personally feel they'll be ahead of both Renault and Honda. Let's see what happens in 2021
CFD Eyes of Sauron

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godlameroso
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I see the power units converging in performance by mid 2021. No one wants to keep throwing money at these engines. The sooner they can wind down costs the better.

Only team dragging its feet is Renault and they chose to not invest the required resources until last year. Honda Ferrari and Mercedes made that investment sooner. Curious that Renault changed course once Budkowski arrived, he probably convinced Renault top brass to invest in the necessary facilities.

I can understand Renault not wanting to freeze engines with its shiny new development toys, but they were the ones that chose to invest at such a late stage.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:36 pm
I see the power units converging in performance by mid 2021. No one wants to keep throwing money at these engines. The sooner they can wind down costs the better.

Only team dragging its feet is Renault and they chose to not invest the required resources until last year. Honda Ferrari and Mercedes made that investment sooner. Curious that Renault changed course once Budkowski arrived, he probably convinced Renault top brass to invest in the necessary facilities.

I can understand Renault not wanting to freeze engines with its shiny new development toys, but they were the ones that chose to invest at such a late stage.
Dragging their feet? Renault could be the second strongest engine in 2020. It was that close between them and Honda. Carlos wouldnt have been able to chase Gasly if his engine wasn't up to snuff.
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hurril
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:23 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:36 pm
I see the power units converging in performance by mid 2021. No one wants to keep throwing money at these engines. The sooner they can wind down costs the better.

Only team dragging its feet is Renault and they chose to not invest the required resources until last year. Honda Ferrari and Mercedes made that investment sooner. Curious that Renault changed course once Budkowski arrived, he probably convinced Renault top brass to invest in the necessary facilities.

I can understand Renault not wanting to freeze engines with its shiny new development toys, but they were the ones that chose to invest at such a late stage.
Dragging their feet? Renault could be the second strongest engine in 2020. It was that close between them and Honda. Carlos wouldnt have been able to chase Gasly if his engine wasn't up to snuff.
Well to be fair, they were not making much progress until last year. They have made great progress as of lately though!