Seems like OWG made it right! Overtakings at Melbourne!

[kilcoo316]

You losing it Ciro?!?!


If you want to watch open wheels on ovals.... you heard about the IRL right?

[timbo]

Now, if you want to convince me (and I guess, some other people in this forum) about so many conclusions, would you be so kind as to post at least a couple of numbers that support them? This is a technical forum, I'm sure most members can dig those numbers...

We could wait for end of the year and look at relative gap at the finish.
That may show how close cars can follow each other.

[Giblet]

I think it is too early in the season to be debating this so intensely.

3.5 races.

When Minardi was around they were often 5-8 seconds slower PER LAP. Stoddart said he would be happy of they could narrow the gap to 2-3 seconds a lap in relation to the competition.

The whole field is now so tight time wise, that these margins don't exists anymore, and by the looks of things, are just going to get tighter.

This is when the OWG will prove it's worth or not. When two cars of roughly equal pace trade back and forth position using the KERS and flaps that they have now, we will be able to better judge.

As for the rFactor comment... the OWG worked out all their ideas on the Mclaren simulator using Pedro de la Rosa as a driver. What was tested byt the OWG assumed that the cars would be similar to the one run on the sim.

This is also why i feel Mclaren were caught with their pants down, that they relied too much on what they saw in the sim, rested on their laurels, and never tried to do what Brawn did, and bring their cars 'to the next level'.

[Scotracer]

I was ready to forgive the grating ugliness of the cars if the changes would see a significant improvement. So far, I've not seen the change I was hoping. They are certainly no Touring Cars.

I would have been much more impressed if the OWG could have got the same results without molesting the cars visually.

[Ciro Pabón]

You losing it Ciro?!?!

If you want to watch open wheels on ovals.... you heard about the IRL right?

Sure, I want to watch open wheels on ovals. I followed CART religiously for many years and now, once in a while, watch an IRL race, and sincerely, I miss that feeling of pure speed and good, clean aerodynamics.

I don't see what's wrong with one oval for F1. It's really that heretic? In times of yore, even in Europe they held that kind of races. That would test "pure aerodynamics", that's all I'm saying. Drag coefficients for F1 are horrible, the cars could run with a canvas sail on top and it wouldn't be that bad as with all the many apendixes and winglets we had to contemplate until last year (sorry, Scotracer, altough I share your admiration for Touring, I like the new regulations about the body).

I agree with Giblet, Ogami and Kilcoo about the thight field. I think we do not have to wait until the end of the year to prove it, as Giblet suggests. A quick analysis of top speeds and the "bunching" you could find at lap times is enough.

However, that's not the point I'm talking about: the point I'm raising is how "right made it" the OWG. Do you really think that bunching is not caused mainly by the spec tyres, plus all the regulations about engines, gearboxes and the such? Then explain why.

Actually, is the field tightened? I think so, but I have no proof. I sincerely would like to "add" that argument to yours and if I have the time I will do it. What distinguishes F1 Technical (I humbly think) from other forums is our collective ability to collate figures and provide definitive answers based on facts that everybody see but few interprete.

I'm curious about this "bunching", because I think that part of this tightening is the result of smaller, "odd" teams, like Minardi (as Giblet wisely points out), relentlessly expelled from F1, plus all the "spec-ing". I sincerely fail to see what part played the OWG in that, except the very notorious part they played in the "DDD affair". That prevents me from agreeing with the thread title.

About my mental health, you know the old saying: "you cannot claim you're losing it: for you to post here, you have to be crazy already".

Anyway, as a mod, I take the opportunity (thanks, guys) to repeat another mantra: attack the post, not the poster. I'm not saying anything about you but about some reasonings in this thread. I'm sorry if I've written posts that can be seen in that way and I apologize if that's the case.

However, I have not mentioned member names, except the ones of people not in the forum, like team technical directors and the such. Please, I ask you (not only kilcoo or Ogami, but everybody) to do the same. I'm not talking about me (I truly do not care, I love to argue about F1 and rarely respond in the same manner), but about everybody. There have been a lot of threads that have become sour lately (intense, in the words of Giblet) because of that custom.

I repeat: next time you want to say "XXX, you're a moron" it's easy to say instead "XXX, your argument is moronic". There is a world of difference: the former brings insults to the thread, the second, long and interesting arguments.

Perhaps too long. Time for me to shut up, I've already said most of what I can contribute to this thread.

[nae]

I like your reasoning and method Ciro

and in the most part agree.


keep up the good reasoning

[Giblet]

CART I miss so much, seeing what they could do on a road course and with just some different sized wings they were on the ovals, racing at 230mph at Indy and Michigan.

As for proof, the gap between the car at the front and the car at the back is seconds different.

Monza Qauli lap or Qauli2 time from 05-08

I chose Monza as a baseline, and chose the fastest of the bottom team from each race.

2005
Mclaren - 1:20.878
Minardi - 1:24.9

2006
Ferrari - 1:21.349
Spyker - 1:23.116

2007
Renault - 1:21.356
Spyker - 1:24.699

2008
STR - 1:35.837
FIF1 - 1:36.698

These are just initial numbers but this trend does keep showing its head wherever I look.

[timbo]

I'm curious about this "bunching", because I think that part of this tightening is the result of smaller, "odd" teams, like Minardi (as Giblet wisely points out), relentlessly expelled from F1, plus all the "spec-ing". I sincerely fail to see what part played the OWG in that, except the very notorious part they played in the "DDD affair". That prevents me from agreeing with the thread title.

To that I agree. However, I have an impression that so far I've seen that following another car was easier this year.
I propose that at the end of the season we can analyze data on distances at the end of the race and qualifying results.
Let's look at time difference between say top ten finishers in the race and on the grid.
This may probably show how difficult or easy it is to follow, as qualifying shows (approximately) how close the pack is in terms of pure pace, and will work as normalizer for finish results. It is probably better to use results at the end of, say,10th lap of the race, but it is harder to find the data for previous years.

[Ogami musashi]

Ciro:
I can't get any number for you sorry.

So you're free not to believe me but i insist that your datas show nothing (about the ability to follow someone closer).

If you don't believe me; maybe you'll believe team engineers from friday's press conference.(by the way interesting).

Q. Ross, would you like to start on the overtaking situation as you and Pat were on the overtaking working group I think.

Ross BRAWN: No, I wasn't. Pat was. Our drivers are reporting that the cars are easier to follow. They have still got an imbalance when they follow other cars. But the cars are easier to follow. At the moment we have got the situation that some cars have KERS and some are without KERS. We have had several occasions where we have managed to get on the back of a car with KERS and we can't overtake it as it uses KERS to pull away, so we have got a little bit of an odd situation at the moment but the general impression from our guys is that the cars are better and because they have got this adjustable front wing it also helps to get the car set up when you are coming up behind someone.

Q. Pat, has it pretty much worked the way you thought it was going to?

Pat SYMONDS: I have to say I am not completely sure. We are on race five now. We have had a couple of wet races, Australia is always a difficult track anyway. I have been quite impressed with the way the Brawns have overtaken us a couple of times, so maybe it has worked or maybe they are just quicker than us. But as Ross says the KERS is clouding things as well and I think it is certainly easier to follow now and that is what we set out to do. But it is not the magic panacea.

They say exactly what i say: you lose less downforce but there're still balance problems.

[Pingguest]

Since a couple of races I changed my opinion. And after Today's race at Silverstone, I think the OWG has failed their job. Both Hamilton and Alonso -two highly talented drivers- couldn't get passed the driving BMW-chicanes. At the beginning of the race Heidfeld had damaged his front wing, lost quite a lot of front end downforce and was about 1.5 seconds slower than Fisichella. Despite all of that, he could easily keep Alonso behind.

[mep]

Since a couple of races I changed my opinion. And after Today's race at Silverstone, I think the OWG has failed their job. Both Hamilton and Alonso -two highly talented drivers- couldn't get passed the driving BMW-chicanes. At the beginning of the race Heidfeld had damaged his front wing, lost quite a lot of front end downforce and was about 1.5 seconds slower than Fisichella. Despite all of that, he could easily keep Alonso behind.

It is even worse:
Hamilton was 23,5kg lighter than Kubica and
Alonso was 11,5kg lighter than Heidfeld and he had a damaged wing.

[kilcoo316]

Since a couple of races I changed my opinion. And after Today's race at Silverstone, I think the OWG has failed their job.

Wait a minute.


How many cars are now running with diffusers as the OWG intended?



It is a bit unfair to blame the OWG for events beyond their control (i.e. the MSWC deciding to make the DDD legal).

[Pingguest]

It is a bit unfair to blame the OWG for events beyond their control (i.e. the MSWC deciding to make the DDD legal).

The only thing the FIA did was copying the OWG's proposed regulations. Members of the OWG (Ross Brawn for example) knew about the loop hole and they didn't change anything. The double decker diffuser may not have been intended by the OWG, but it certainly is their responsibility.

However, I wonder the effects of the double decker diffuser for the overtaking. Back in Australia drivers already complained about overtaking still being too difficult although that diffuser was used by only three teams. The most overtaking we've see so far was due to fuel and tyre compounds.

[FLC]

While that's true, you cant ignore the fact that they were able to follow each other very closely for a good amount of laps. That wasn't always the case before, while this year we've seen it happen almost everywhere.
Maybe if the engines weren't standardized and KERS was thought through and served as a differentiator factor, things were even better.

That's without considering the effect of the DDDs and other "against the spirit" developments (like the rear wing extensions on the Toyota, although I don't know for sure if they are damaging the ability to follow and pass).
I think the OWG should be given another chance to work on the rules and come up with some improvements. Maybe in the new series...

[Metar]

The only thing the FIA did was copying the OWG's proposed regulations. Members of the OWG (Ross Brawn for example) knew about the loop hole and they didn't change anything. The double decker diffuser may not have been intended by the OWG, but it certainly is their responsibility.

Ross Brawn wasn't in the OWG. The OWG was comprised of Ferrari man Rory Byrne, Renault’s Pat Symonds and Paddy Lowe of McLaren.

However, I wonder the effects of the double decker diffuser for the overtaking. Back in Australia drivers already complained about overtaking still being too difficult although that diffuser was used by only three teams. The most overtaking we've see so far was due to fuel and tyre compounds.

The ones that complained the most were DDD-drivers - Timo Glock, most notably.