2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

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beelsebob
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Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
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Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

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Since you guys (rightly) discounted my theory about low revs being bad for the battery, here's an alternative - at low revs the turbo hasn't spooled up yet, they're using both the MGU-K to get acceleration and MGU-H to spool the turbo at low revs, and hence drawing a lot from the battery.

Does that one make more sense?

komninosm
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Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

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iotar__ wrote:http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/07/30/2 ... nscript-2/
48 LH I can’t imagine these tyres lasting another 20 laps.
48 PB So the softs did an equivalent of 24 laps albeit from damp conditions so wear shouldn’t be an issue.
54 PB OK, Lewis. So 18 laps remaining. We need to get these tyres to the end.
54 LH Trying to manage these as best I can.
This is dragging too long (mostly repeating) so last thing: on a 10th lap of 31 lap stint on mediums Hamilton is saying those tyres won't last but when he says couple of laps before pitting that there's some pace in the softs, he pushes couple of laps and pits it's a proof that: 1 he could have done even longer stint without losing pace 2. final stint of 30ish laps on softs without problems. Does not make sense.
Do you even understand what is being said? Most people are suggesting using 2 softs instead of 1 medium (not just 1 soft, but even that would have been a better strategy, cause it left the option to go fast and pit if half way you discovered it wasn't going to last).
Also when Hamilton says "I can’t imagine these tyres lasting another 20 laps." he is talking about his MEDIUM tires that were only 11 laps old. What that means is that the medium tires were SOOOO SLOW that they felt like they had gone off the cliff while they still weren't even mid-way. Medium tire was a HUGE mistake for Hamilton, more so because he had FRESH soft tires from not using them in Qualifying. Seriously why are we still talking about this obvious thing? :roll:

komninosm
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Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

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Regle wrote:
Regle wrote: Hard to say. I liked the early, fresh Vettel. Now he's lost that a bit, probably due to professionalism and bad experiences with press exaggerating his statements or twisting his words in his mouth (as of course they do with all drivers), but in private he's probably still a nice guy so I still like him, but I don't adore him. I didn't want him to win that 4th championship. Oh, and yes, I'm German.
Why did I even try…
I don't know, why did you? :roll:
All you did was spout hate for Alonso, Hamilton, etc and fail to disguise your fanboyism for Vettel. =D>

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Pierce89
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Joined: 21 Oct 2009, 18:38

Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

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beelsebob wrote:Since you guys (rightly) discounted my theory about low revs being bad for the battery, here's an alternative - at low revs the turbo hasn't spooled up yet, they're using both the MGU-K to get acceleration and MGU-H to spool the turbo at low revs, and hence drawing a lot from the battery.

Does that one make more sense?
I agreed with you. I was just pointing out the flat torque vs flat power mistake, but yeah the mgu-k could definitely get hotter at lower rpm, and then the extra current draw for mgu-h would also increase heat.
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iotar__
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Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

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komninosm wrote:
iotar__ wrote:http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/07/30/2 ... nscript-2/
48 LH I can’t imagine these tyres lasting another 20 laps.
48 PB So the softs did an equivalent of 24 laps albeit from damp conditions so wear shouldn’t be an issue.
54 PB OK, Lewis. So 18 laps remaining. We need to get these tyres to the end.
54 LH Trying to manage these as best I can.
This is dragging too long (mostly repeating) so last thing: on a 10th lap of 31 lap stint on mediums Hamilton is saying those tyres won't last but when he says couple of laps before pitting that there's some pace in the softs, he pushes couple of laps and pits it's a proof that: 1 he could have done even longer stint without losing pace 2. final stint of 30ish laps on softs without problems. Does not make sense.
Do you even understand what is being said? Most people are suggesting using 2 softs instead of 1 medium (not just 1 soft, but even that would have been a better strategy, cause it left the option to go fast and pit if half way you discovered it wasn't going to last).
Also when Hamilton says "I can’t imagine these tyres lasting another 20 laps." he is talking about his MEDIUM tires that were only 11 laps old. What that means is that the medium tires were SOOOO SLOW that they felt like they had gone off the cliff while they still weren't even mid-way. Medium tire was a HUGE mistake for Hamilton, more so because he had FRESH soft tires from not using them in Qualifying. Seriously why are we still talking about this obvious thing? :roll:
1. What "most people"? Speak for yourself, many ideas were discussed, like long stint on softs
2. That's not possible scenario at all: as was repeated about 10 times this idea does not make sense because Merc tends to separate drivers: two fixed strategies
2. You translated rather freely Hamilton's and his RE's words into made up scenario , problem is 1. you have nothing to back it up 2. reality wasn't like that at all, mediums weren't slow at all, 2. after getting up to speed they weren't in a good condition, as was evident from Ricciardo overtake mistake and inability to overtake "gone soft tyres" Alonso.

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dans79
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Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

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iotar__ wrote: 1. What "most people"? Speak for yourself, many ideas were discussed, like long stint on softs
Pretty much everyone who has the deduction skills to look at lap times, stint lengths, and can do basic math could see that even part way through the race the softs where the tire to be on.
iotar__ wrote: 2. That's not possible scenario at all: as was repeated about 10 times this idea does not make sense because Merc tends to separate drivers: two fixed strategies
And in general this strategy has shown to be crap! Secondly, the team puts way to much emphasis on "controlling" the race, instead of actually racing. But then what do you expect when you have a timid engineer and a wanabe racer running the team. One is to timid to lead, and the other seems to be trying to impose his will on the drivers to show that he is in charge.


They should have put both drivers on the best strategy to get them into contention for the win. That strategy was inters for the start and then softs the rest of the way. It's not a coincidence that the 1st & 2nd placed cars that are inferior to the 3rd & 4th placed cars ran this strategy.
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iotar__
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Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

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dans79 wrote:
iotar__ wrote: 1. What "most people"? Speak for yourself, many ideas were discussed, like long stint on softs
Pretty much everyone who has the deduction skills to look at lap times, stint lengths, and can do basic math could see that even part way through the race the softs where the tire to be on.
What does this vague "the softs were the tire to be on" mean? No, not on 31 laps stint Hamilton was on they were not, (most likely, with risks and little reward etc.), based on arguments presented dozen of times.

This is either going in circles or some random new element is added like creative interpretation of very straightforward messages between LH and his RE where simple voicing of uncertainty about mediums lasting after 1/3 of a stint was somehow translated into mediums are slow or whatever it was #-o . If something like that happens it's time to finish it.

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dans79
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Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

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iotar__ wrote: What does this vague "the softs were the tire to be on" mean? No, not on 31 laps stint Hamilton was on they were not, (most likely, with risks and little reward etc.), based on arguments presented dozen of times.
The strategy to be on was Inter,soft soft, soft. If you can't figure that out from the plethora of data available, then i feel sorry for you.
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Shrieker
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Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

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Inter, soft, soft, soft was best. It won the race. Inter soft, soft was second best, it took Alonso to second. Inter soft, medium was the worst strategy, and Hamilton wouldn't have managed a podium with it if he wasn't ruthless on the last lap.

I still do not understand why they put Hamilton on mediums. At no point in the weekend it surpassed softs in longevity. And were 1 to 1.5 seconds slower... It's like shooting yourself in the foot.
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GrizzleBoy
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Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

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Shrieker wrote:It's like shooting yourself in the foot.
Not if its somebody else's foot. :wink:

f1-neil
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Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

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I can recall when they did it thinking "what the hell thats idiotic", I can remember everyone saying it was idiotic on live forums, the question is why did Mercedes have a brain fart and suddenly think it was a good strategy when the entire watching world though different. These guys are paid loads to come up with a winning strategy, they might aswell just ask a couple of fans, they'd get better results. It still stinks a bit.

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

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Shrieker wrote:Inter, soft, soft, soft was best. It won the race. Inter soft, soft was second best, it took Alonso to second. Inter soft, medium was the worst strategy, and Hamilton wouldn't have managed a podium with it if he wasn't ruthless on the last lap.
Not that easy I´m afraid...

You could also say Inter, soft, medium was better than Inter, soft, soft, soft, since hamilton beated Rosberg with that strategy from the pit-lane even when Rosberg was on pole. And that would be a better comparison since they drive same car :wink:

Or you could even say Inter, soft, soft was better than Inter, soft, soft, soft since Alonso almost beat Ricciardo with that strategy, even when first SC was very harmful for him, favoured Ricciardo, and Red Bull is faster than Ferrari, and even so Alonso almost win the race

Not so easy as saying he won so his strategy was the best, there´re lots of circumstances that affect each race/driver.

Shrieker wrote:I still do not understand why they put Hamilton on mediums. At no point in the weekend it surpassed softs in longevity. And were 1 to 1.5 seconds slower... It's like shooting yourself in the foot.
Do you know how many laps they did on each compound on free practice, and how much rubber there was on each tyre after each stint? You´re assuming mediums didn´t last more, but I´m not sure if you have enough data to make that assumption. They could have done 20 laps on each compound, but softs finishing with no rubber at all, while mediums finishig with 20-30% rubber left.

When I don´t understand some team decision I think I must be missing something, instead of assuming they shooted himself in the foot. They´re not stupid, so to me it´s obvious mediums actually last longer.

Longest stints with mediums: 39 laps, 37, 36, 36, 33

Longest stints with softs (ignoring Chilton who was the last one with a 37 laps stint with softs): 32, 31, 31, 31....

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/07/27/2 ... pit-stops/


Not a big difference, but they lasted longer

But that does not mean Mercedes/Hamilton/mediums/dirt air have to last longer than Ferrari/Alonso/softs/clean air. They tried, but didn´t succeed.

Now highsight is great, but they had some reasons to think mediums would last longer and Hamilton could attack Alonso at the end of the race. They could even think Alonso was going to do another pit-stop, so they tried a different strategy to avoid on track overtaking on a track where overtaking is very difficult


Overall I agree best would have been inter-soft-soft-soft, but you can´t say they shoted himself in the foot, they tried something logical, wrong watching the result, but not that crazy at that part of the race

enigmatic enthusiast
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Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

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Mercedes putting Hamilton on the Mediums was wrong any way you cut it. Doing so allowed Alonso to drive to a target lap capable of bring his softs to the end while the Medium shodded AMG Hybrid was always going to have to defend from Riccardio and Rosberg. Hamilton would had won if those two weren't part of the strategy so in that light it looks like Mercedes was just viewing Ham's race vs Alonso in a bubble.

Mercedes splitting the tire strategy between the two cars really makes sense if the two are only fighting each other. However they stuck with the normal strategy and put Rosberg on the soft tires as he was the lead car on lap 32. Hamilton pitted lap 39 having passed verge and vettel (due to spin) in a little over a lap; he came out ahead of Rosberg and should have been viewed as the lead car and put of the SOFT tires as well.

On soft tires Hamilton would have caught Alonso in ~5 laps where that Ferrari chassis wouldn't stand a chance in the DRS zone against the Merc chassis on fresh tires. Keep in mind that Alonso (while trying to make his tires last I remind you) was catching Riccardio rapidly at the end of his next-to-last stint and was only 12 second behind when the Red Bull pitted on lap 55. Give lewis those 10 laps after passing Alonso and he could have been within a few seconds of Riccardio as he followed him into the pit lane. Riccardio came out 10 seconds infront of Bottas and 5 seconds behind Alonso. Those conditions would have been ripe for Lewis to attack with 15 laps to go.

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Juzh
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Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

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enigmatic enthusiast wrote:Mercedes putting Hamilton on the Mediums was wrong any way you cut it. Doing so allowed Alonso to drive to a target lap capable of bring his softs to the end while the Medium shodded AMG Hybrid was always going to have to defend from Riccardio and Rosberg. Hamilton would had won if those two weren't part of the strategy so in that light it looks like Mercedes was just viewing Ham's race vs Alonso in a bubble.

Mercedes splitting the tire strategy between the two cars really makes sense if the two are only fighting each other. However they stuck with the normal strategy and put Rosberg on the soft tires as he was the lead car on lap 32. Hamilton pitted lap 39 having passed verge and vettel (due to spin) in a little over a lap; he came out ahead of Rosberg and should have been viewed as the lead car and put of the SOFT tires as well.

On soft tires Hamilton would have caught Alonso in ~5 laps where that Ferrari chassis wouldn't stand a chance in the DRS zone against the Merc chassis on fresh tires. Keep in mind that Alonso (while trying to make his tires last I remind you) was catching Riccardio rapidly at the end of his next-to-last stint and was only 12 second behind when the Red Bull pitted on lap 55. Give lewis those 10 laps after passing Alonso and he could have been within a few seconds of Riccardio as he followed him into the pit lane. Riccardio came out 10 seconds infront of Bottas and 5 seconds behind Alonso. Those conditions would have been ripe for Lewis to attack with 15 laps to go.
Hindsight is strong with this one. True nonetheless.

f1-neil
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Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

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enigmatic enthusiast wrote: Mercedes splitting the tire strategy between the two cars really makes sense if the two are only fighting each other.
Yeah but if you think about it. If this was a normal race with a Merc 1 and 2, which ever driver was put onto the mediums strategy would have being a total unfair sitting duck to the driver given then two soft strategy.

Even going back to Bahrain, that was a crazy situation (it happened elsewhere again) where Rosberg coming up behind had the superior strategy/tyres.

It seems Merc and McLaren have wierd ideas of equality, they seem to think if they disadvantage one of their drivers then its some how equality.

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