Briatore's trash becomes Symonds' treasure!

[Belatti]

The only thing I can say is I agree with the DDD veredict. They deserve to keep the car as they have designed it because they were clever enough with interpretation and they even consulted the legality of the device.

Whats "weird" is that I heard rumours that Renault asked for its use in the design process and FIA said "NO". But... again... Symonds was the designer and member of the OWG.

Something smells rotten there...

[RacingManiac]

Personally I think thats why Flavio was so pissed, and also would explain why Renault came out with a solution so quickly....

[yzfr7]

Wheel fairings are always aerodynamic aids, but they are allowed because they are packaged within the space of brake cooling. Just like DDD exists outside of the area of diffuser packaging.....

Go and tell this to f*****i/todt/brawn. Did you forget how this story started? Or how they forget the brake-cooling-device-which-happens-to-have-aerodynamics-side-effect for the hot races?

Was Symonds the first to openly state that? Not that it was a secret anymore.

[RacingManiac]

Its the exact same situation as the DDD though, the rule stated some requirement, and they box out an area where you can do something, and they did it.

You're telling me, that it has no effect on cooling? Because it could have an effect on cooling, but it just so happen to affect aero as well. Its an easy enough argument to make....

[Conceptual]

Well, I think that they were on the chopping block for 2010, and with that statement, Symonds may have put the nail in the coffin.

[Giblet]

Has anyone from any team learned anything?

I think it would be more classy to be like Brawn, although some call it arrogant, and just say "We are exploiting a hole we found in the rules".

Brawn knew they found a loophole, used it, and moved on the next part of the car.

Symonds sounds like he is doing the same thing, really.

Now if the fairings added ~14% more downforce, I'm sure they would be protested, and allowed to live for at least that season, but since they don't, it's all but a non issue with everyone.

[RacingManiac]

btw, I am sure its not the fairing itself that adds downforce, more to the effect of it conditions the flow that adds downforce on the other appendages on the car...

[Metar]

Well, I think that they were on the chopping block for 2010, and with that statement, Symonds may have put the nail in the coffin.

Haven't seen anything in that area highlighted as a change between the 2009 and 2010 technical regulations.

[Conceptual]

btw, I am sure its not the fairing itself that adds downforce, more to the effect of it conditions the flow that adds downforce on the other appendages on the car...

Really? Can I get a link to the objective evidence that you learned this from? Or is it another opinion stated as fact?

[Metar]

He doesn't know any more than you know that it does. All we know - and that for certain - is that it creates some benefit. Drag-reduction, downforce, or both - we can't know without data from the teams.


For a thread that didn't have much of a point in the first place, there's no use arguing over the exact wordings of people's posts.

[Conceptual]

He doesn't know any more than you know that it does. All we know - and that for certain - is that it creates some benefit. Drag-reduction, downforce, or both - we can't know without data from the teams.


For a thread that didn't have much of a point in the first place, there's no use arguing over the exact wordings of people's posts.

We know what Symonds states:

Can you update us on the team's development programme as the European season begins?The whole team is still pushing hard with development and the diffuser and floor that we brought to China was very much a first attempt and over the course of the year we will see several more versions, the first of which we hope to have in Barcelona.

In addition, we've got new wheel fairings this weekend with quite a major design change to give us an increase in downforce and a new rear wing. On top of that we've got a few small aerodynamic tweaks that we will introduce on a race-by-race basis. Overall we can expect a reasonable step in performance for Barcelona.

So we know now that these are a downforce "generating" item, instead of a cooling management item. I think that it works by creating a high pressure area on the upper area of the fairing, and a low pressure area on the bottom area. Since the front shields are slightly domed, or have relief area designed into them to seperate these zones and produce the downforce. There is nothing downstream of the shields that would indicate that it is a flow conditioner.

And I apologize if I think that only objective facts should be treated as FACT. You may have no problem with people stating their opinion and calling it fact, but for the people that DO seek understanding, statements made in such a way tend to spread ingorance.

All I ask is that when someone states their opinion, they call it such. Is that really such a problem?

And if you feel that this thread is pointless, how about not reading/posting? It is OK, there are enough posts here to not lose sleep over skipping one. Heck, there are a great number of posts that I don't even bother clicking on!

[RacingManiac]

I don't know for sure, but I do know that fairing are used to control the flows in and around the wheels, which, uncontrolled, disrupts the flow that goes to the rear wing, and or other parts of the car down stream of it. Pat Symond stated that they get more downforce running the new fairing, he didn't exactly said that they got it from the new fairing, they got it with the new fairing. If it reduces the disruption to the rear wing, that would give you more downforce too....

If you think it got it from the fairing, thats your business and you are entitled to that.

In MY opinion(much like I AM Sure, which is MY opinion), the fact that much of the aero bits that are banned this year shifted their attention more to the area they can work with relative freedom, such as the brake ducting.....A lot of the bits and pieces on the car before doesn't necessarily produce downforce on their own, but working with other parts they increases the downforce of the car. And it is not a far stretch assumption in my mind that that its what he was refering to.....

[Conceptual]

I don't know for sure, but I do know that fairing are used to control the flows in and around the wheels, which, uncontrolled, disrupts the flow that goes to the rear wing, and or other parts of the car down stream of it. Pat Symond stated that they get more downforce running the new fairing, he didn't exactly said that they got it from the new fairing, they got it with the new fairing. If it reduces the disruption to the rear wing, that would give you more downforce too....

If you think it got it from the fairing, thats your business and you are entitled to that.

In MY opinion(much like I AM Sure, which is MY opinion), the fact that much of the aero bits that are banned this year shifted their attention more to the area they can work with relative freedom, such as the brake ducting.....A lot of the bits and pieces on the car before doesn't necessarily produce downforce on their own, but working with other parts they increases the downforce of the car. And it is not a far stretch assumption in my mind that that its what he was refering to.....

I comprehend what you are saying, but I fail to understand how the outside of the front wheel would influence the much narrower rear wing. I mean, once the "air shed" gets near the sidepods, my mind assumes that the high-pressure area over the pods would actually repel the rimshield shed, since the air pressure to the outside of the sidepod would be much lower.

And maybe someone should ask Symonds a bit more directly about what he meant by "increasing downforce", because if it comes out that the rimshields themselves produce downforce at the wheel, then it would be an unsprung aerodynamic device, and that would make it in violation of the technical regs.

Maybe Scarbs can get some info on this? It would be interesting to see if this is a tech reg that all teams break, so no one protests against it. To be honest, if this is the case, I don't mind!

EDIT:

After checking the tech regs for 2009, it looks as if I am wrong about them being a violation, even if they directly add downforce at the wheel.

3.15 Aerodynamic influence :
With the exception of the cover described in Article 6.5.2 (when used in the pit lane), the driver adjustable
bodywork described in Article 3.18 and the ducts described in Article 11.4, any specific part of the car
influencing its aerodynamic performance :
- must comply with the rules relating to bodywork ;
2009 F1 Technical Regulations 14 of 67 17 March 2009
- must be rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car (rigidly secured means not having any
degree of freedom) ;
- must remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car.

11.4 Air ducts :
Air ducts around the front and rear brakes will be considered part of the braking system and shall not
protrude beyond :
- a plane parallel to the ground situated at a distance of 160mm above the horizontal centre line of
the wheel ;
- a plane parallel to the ground situated at a distance of 160mm below the horizontal centre line of
the wheel ;
- a vertical plane parallel to the inner face of the wheel rim and displaced from it by 120mm toward
the centre line of the car.
Furthermore, when viewed from the side the ducts must not protrude forwards beyond a radius of 330mm
from the centre of the wheel or backwards beyond a radius of 180mm from the centre of the wheel.
All measurements will be made with the wheel held in a vertical position.

So, rimshields are exempt from the unsprung, unmoving downforce generating devices.

I apologize for making such an issue about this. I did not know that they were specifically exempted.

Thanks!

[alelanza]

The point is that for all of Briatore's running at the mouth, he was proven absolutely wrong on the legality of the DDD, and now his team is HAPPY that he was wrong, because their car was utter crap, and now the "illegal" part that Flavio said was the worst is now the ONLY thing that is making their car any better.

You may want to recheck what the double diffuser saga was about. That or you are too passionate about Flavio.

[xpensive]

Dear Ciro, where do I get it wrong on F1T? A boring technical topic with tedious numbers and quantifications gets zip for response, but exciting speculations on high-profile individuals, spiced up with personal remarks and funny xpressions, can go on forever?