Brazilian GP 2011 - Interlagos

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Post Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:09 am

While you have a fair point, it'd only put Vettel 32 to ~50 points furher up the road, and not have a major effect on Webber's points haul at all. Not to mention the huge performance margin between the two team mates which pretty much didn't exist in 2010.
Homo homini lupus
Joined: 1 Mar 2010
Location: Istanbul, TR

Post Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:27 am

from a team's perspective, it does not make sense to deliberately slow down one driver to make way for the other. RedBull would prefer to have a 1-2 finish for all the races if that was possible.
Webber has scored 7 fastest laps, Vettel 3. This indicate that Webber had the proper equipment, his car was not crippled (as conspirator wants me to believe).

However, Webber is the No.2 driver since he has gathered less points than Vettel. It is only natural/logical to create a preference to Vettel from a team's point of view. Preference can be in the pitstop priority and team orders but I don't think Webber has 2nd rated equipment to deliberately slow him down. Because that will piss Webber off and he will speak out as he always do.
Joined: 13 May 2007

Post Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:53 am

The discussion about the Vettel gearbox problem being potentially fake is interesting. I think at one point in the race the RB pits told Vettel: "short shift every gear every lap". Then Vettel did a fastest lap (and many other generally fast laps that might be inconsistent with short-shifting continuously).

It is possible to do a noise analysis from Vettel's onboard camera/mic to determine how high Vettel was actually reving his engine. Unfortunately, I already erased my race recording. Also, I don't remember if there was an extended onboard segment of Vettel's car after the "every gear every lap" call AND while he was turning a quick laptime.

However, I am a noise engineer with the basic software to analyze this. If someone wants to post a video of Vettel on an appropriate lap then I will post a chart of rpm vs time.

I'm not judging, I'm simply willing to help supply some information if someone can get me a recording.
bill shoe
Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Location: Dallas, Texas, USA

Post Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:04 am


Red Bull need Webber only for one thing; to gain enough points to win the constructors'. Oh, and to make Vettel look better than he is. He is a damn good driver already, he doesn't need it, but the team have done it nevertheless. Fastest lap statistic - it's good that you've pointed that out; the fastest race laps always come after most of the fuel load is shed, a Vettel pushing when the car is light could've easily collected all those fastest laps. And I don't think Webber is being given 2nd rate equipment. A small change in the engine over-run can make all the difference and the driver can't really tell, even if he is allowed to look at his team mate's telemetry. We all saw how the toys were thrown out of the pram once Webber started beating Vettel in 2010, the way the team were bad mouthing him was a strong indicator of what they really were expecting from him. They probably got it out of the way well before 2011 started.

And to add insult to injury, the team has made sure that Webber won the last race in one of the most farcical ways, only by his team mate letting him through. It was as almost the team was saying "look, you can only win if we want so". Can't be easy for Webber, I sure as hell wouldn't wanna be in his shoes. The suspicion must be eating his mind, and after a full season he surely knows what's going on, and I think he's keeping quiet for a reason.
Homo homini lupus
Joined: 1 Mar 2010
Location: Istanbul, TR

Post Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:23 am

Shrieker wrote:...I think he's keeping quiet for a reason.

yes, Webber is quiet because he know is has been under performing and he is thanking his lucky stars that some young gun like Buemi or Jaimi has not taken his seat yet. hehehe...

In regards to the gearbox thing. Vettel was not alone with gearbox problem, Hamilton and Senna have gearbox problem. Somehow you believe Vettel's problem is fake? Where did you get evidence to support such claim?
Joined: 13 May 2007

Post Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:30 am

I didn't say Vettel's gearbox problem was fake, you can even go ahead check all of my posts in this topic. He had the speed to post the fastest lap later in the race, yet somehow the team got him out of Webber's way which is a fact. Him posting that fastest lap proves he could've defended from Webber to some extent, the team specifically requested him not to do so however.
Homo homini lupus
Joined: 1 Mar 2010
Location: Istanbul, TR

Post Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:00 am

It is really nice of Vettel to allow Webber through. Goes to show the maturity/professionalism of this kid. Something that many other drivers should learn. Plus, Vettel could have defended but for how long? would he have lasted till the end of the race?

Webber is in the no.2 position because Vettel is better. Webber has not blame anyone and I think you shouldn't as well.
Joined: 13 May 2007

Post Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:10 am

Vettel is better, and he earned it. But that shouldn't give the team the right to mess with Webber, just because he might threaten Vettel on occasion. As pointed out in my previous posts, I have reason enough to think Webber's been hampered ever so slightly by the team.
Homo homini lupus
Joined: 1 Mar 2010
Location: Istanbul, TR

Post Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:20 am

I personally don't believe he was hampered in an unfair manner. If I think Webber is hampered for whatever reasons, then I could apply the same thinking with Schumacher, Massa, Heidfeld. Doesn't that sound silly?
Joined: 13 May 2007

Post Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:57 am

i was paying attention to vettel's in-car camera when he was told to short shift. it was very hard for him to comply, hence the constant reminders on the radio. the steering wheel shift lights showed that he started shifting ever-so-slightly sooner, like as soon as the red lights came on instead of half a second later. then he would shift during the middle (orange?) lights in the lower gears out of the slower corners. once he was no longer in the lead, there was hardly any in-car shots of him, though, so it's hard to say how much he ended up short shifting.
Joined: 16 Oct 2010

Post Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:08 am


Schumacher, Massa and Heidfeld have got nothing to do with the intra team situation at Red Bull. Their situation isn't similar with Webber at all.
Homo homini lupus
Joined: 1 Mar 2010
Location: Istanbul, TR

Post Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:37 am

n smikle wrote:And when I say non-wining car I really mean it! As an honest and unbiased viewer I actually do believe that Vettel could have won every single race of 2011.

1. China - wrong strategy by team
2. Canada - skid off the track (it happens to every one)
3. Silverstone - Pit stop error by team
4. Germany - Got scared in front of the home crowd and under performed. - could have won.
5. Hungary - Got scared in front of the Bossy and pitstop error. - could have won.
6. Japan - Pit too early and Got caught in traffic
7. Abu-dhabi - Tyre Failure
8. Brazil - Gearbox failure

Yerp - he could have had 8 more wins.

Anyone who doubts the potentially unstoppable combination of Vettel and RB7 must be deluded.

He could have had 8 more wins; but the whole point was that he (and Red Bull) DID make those little mistakes. You don't win races by being bad at pitstops, or bad at strategy. It has to work side by side with the car's pace. About Canada; Silverstone. Let's face it, he probably wouldn't have won. If Seb hadn't pushed that hard on Lap 70 in Canada; he would've been in DRS range, and we saw that day DRS was well easy. Silverstone, Alonso was carving everyone's bollocks into pieces when he got out in the lead. He was pulling over a second a lap from everyone else.

Germany I think it's more a case that Vettel is rather rubbish at the Nurburgring. He could have won Hockenheim; he got pole there last year too; so it wouldn't be home pressure, I don't think. Hungary I don't remember a duff pitstop?

Shrieker wrote:And you can't explain everything about the huge gap between the two team mates with the tyre brand being different from 2010.

No, but you have to remember there are also many changes such as the change to throttle retarded ignition; the inclusion of DRS and KERS, and a few other things. The Red Bull system was alleged to have started retarded ignition in Valencia. Since Valencia 2010, Mark Webber has never outpaced Vettel.

Seb has always out qualified and outraced Mark; except for Silverstone (punctured by contact with Hamilton’s left front endplate), Hungary (Seb got a drive through), Belgium (hard to say about qualifying given that Mark was the only one to take the weather seriously – his pole was more of timing than pure outright speed. In the race Seb had the measure of Mark, just that he had a penalty, and had 2 collisions). Monza qualifying is the only time when Sebastian was truly outdone by Mark
Joined: 4 Feb 2010

Post Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:49 am

As for Vettel's gearbox > If he was ready to take big risk posting couple of fast laps and a fastest lap well after he knew the SERIOUS gearbox problem, then what did him stop to defend against Webber ? I know : team orders. But short shifting and nursing the car was a team order too. So how would you know when he's listening for team orders ?
That fast laps happened in a most suspicious situation too > when he was nowhere near Webber or Alonso. That moment rather was an ideal situation to slow down a little,and watch for that gearbox. If that gearbox had so SERIOUS problem, than his race engineer should shout on him on radio all the time while he was posting those laps.

I don't care for RBR team orders, it's only doesn't make sense to mee. Probably we'll nevere know the real situation anyway.
Joined: 18 Feb 2010
Location: Ada,Serbia

Post Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:00 am

ell66 wrote:wasnt impressed by jenson, alonso showed him up on the first stint,

Then Button "showed up" Alonso on the final stint. So that's quits?

The thing is that Button finished first of the non-RB in both the race and the WDC. You may not be impressed by his style, but he does bring in the results.
Joined: 15 Apr 2009
Location: UK

Post Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:59 am

Shortshifting costs you how much a lap? a couple of tenths?

Given the information from another thread, where somebody stated that the Renault engine might be setup to deliver peak torque and hp not at full revs, it is well probable that short shifting does not affect the lap performance too much.

It should also reduce tire wear / temps and with lighter fuel loads it can well be possible to post "fast" laps.

Webber given inferior material or false engine mappings? I highly doubt that! There used to be an onboard video of a Webber Qualy lap where he constantly runs wide due to understeer. This means he had either too much rear DF or too little front DF...this would be against the theory of having an inferior engine map and thus less rear DF.....
Joined: 31 May 2010


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