2017 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Hamilton vs Vettel incident

[foxmulder_ms]

Vettel has to be penelized TWICE.

1) For causing a collision: He just run into Lewis's back. 10sec stop and go should suffice for this.

2) For teenager road rage: A race ban.

Crystal clear. Anything less is just to please Ferrari.

[djos]

Vettel has to be penelized TWICE.

1) For causing a collision: He just run into Lewis's back. 10sec stop and go should suffice for this.

2) For teenager road rage: A race ban.

Crystal clear. Anything less is just to please Ferrari.

He should have been disqualified for the road rage incident. The only reason he wasn't was to preserve the championship battle.

[drunkf1fan]

I think people are overreacting so much. I for one really enjoyed the nudge, it was raw and hot!
It's the kind of thing that if the season continues with this trend will make this an absolute classic maybe even worth of a movie. Arguably 2 of the best drivers in the current era in two of the best teams ever going all out crazy against each other. Man I am so excited for every race this year.

And I know I will get a lot of bash because of safety but I think that is a big overreaction. It was not so unsafe to give a bump tyre on tyre at 50km/h. And no wishbones don't break that easily otherwise we would have so much more catastrophic events. Heck how many times did we see tyre go against tyre at much harder speed, or worse tyre against wall! I mean even this GP many drivers touched the wall with quite more energy and came out fine. Ofc it could've gone wrong but like everything in F1 there is a degree of risk and tbh it was totally acceptable. Not worse than some inside corners dive bombs and whatnot.

Just to be clear I am not arguing about the penalties and whatnot, I am not trying to be a judge here, just a fan.

I see this kind of statement everywhere, it's so devoid of logic as to be painful.

The speed a car is going forwards has absolutely nothing to do with how fast the car swerves into the other.

You can be going 300kph forward, but move a couple inches to the side and rub tires with almost no force, you can also be going 25kph forward, but swerve a yard to the right in the same time and produce 10 times the actual impact force.

The speed the cars are when going forwards only has to do with the danger if the car does break. I urge people to rewatch the replay from the angle at the front, the impact causes the entire front of Vettel's car to lift off the track, both front wheels get airborne. It wasn't a small impact at all and people judging the forward speed going forwards are completely missing that the relevant force here is the speed going towards the other car.

But apart from all that, intent, intent matters everywhere. Accidental tyre rubbing while travelling at high speed is just that, accidental. Deliberate impact at ANY speed is entirely unacceptable full stop.

[drunkf1fan]

Hamilton clearly did not do a brake test, he simply did not accelarate.

In a car with such an amount of downforce/drag, not accelerating is very similar to braking.
Have you seen the onboards at that corner? You see Hamilton almost going to a standstill.

I read some years ago a F1 car with a mid downforce setup, when going over 200kmh, just releasing the throttle is decreasing speed faster than a production car apllying full brakes, wich is enlightening about how much drag a F1 produces

But the incident was at around 60-80kmh, when drag and downforce are negligible. Also, FIA said telemetry show Lewis didn´t brake, and didn´t even release the throttle completely, so that cannot be Vettel´s excuse

It wouldn't particularly matter if he had though. He slowed there previous lap, every driver who has led a safety car of been under a safety car absolutely knows the lead driver will slow to create a gap before the final braking zone. This is simple fact, it happens everywhere regardless of driver. Everyone wants to gun it out of the final corner and doesn't want to pass the safety car so a gap must be created. Everyone knows the safety car line here is further from the last braking zone than probably anywhere else, they know the gap must be larger. There were no problems in the first restart, Perez wasn't expecting Hamilton to gun out out of turn 15 and so wasn't up Vettel's tail pipe and didn't come close to hitting Vettel either. Because of the distance the safety car was. If Hamilton absolutely floored it out of turn 15... he would catch the safety car a couple hundred meters max down the start finish straight and have to brake hard. Vettel was in no danger of letting Hamilton get away and had no need at that point to be that close or any reason to believe Hamilton would be anything other than slow to create a gap.

Hamilton drove turn 15 as every single other driver in his position would, slow to create a gap. IF you do it too early, say turn 12, then aside from the same problem, slowing out of any old corner which can catch out the guy behind if he's asleep, it's then infinitely harder to judge where the safety car is and at what point to gun it, while if you can see the safety car into turn 16, you can slow and wait whatever number of seconds the team tells you is required before going into turn 16.

Basically you have to be not quite paying attention imo to take t15 normally and not be ready for Hamilton to be slowing down. But again, Vettel specifically said Hamilton accelerated out of t15 then braked hard.... he both didn't accelerate at all(his speed went down, very slowly at all times) and never jumped on the brakes.

My take is Seb was distracted, by radio, by boredom, whatever, ants in his pants, maybe he forgot the SC was coming in saw the gap grow and figured Ham would speed up to maintain the 10 lengths. To me it seems he was distracted, accelerated, hit Hamilton, momentarily blamed Hamilton, then went into a rage(completely unacceptable) then post race was embarrassed about it and went into PR mode, blame Hamilton and not himself. Too childish to have all that time to realise he was in the wrong and accept responsibility so now he's even making stuff up about Ham accelerating then braking hard.

[Moose]

Ofcourse it is done, full agree. That is the genious of it all. Hamilton always finds a way to totally creditable be able to deny any blaim, who can lay Any blaim on him and prove it, nobody.

Perhaps that's because you keep trying to pin blame on him for things that he's blameless in?

I am not trying to do anything, Hamilton did that himself, you just don't want to recognize it. For sure Hamilton was trying to unnerve Vettel there. He did make a move, but indeed that is fully within the rules, nobody can say he did anything wrong, he was the leader, he can set the pace.

If you are finding the need to read "unnerving opponents" into someone gently slowing to let the safety car get a decent distance ahead of them, then you're really really really reaching for them being the big bad boogey man.

[Jordan44]

Is there a chance the FIA may call a disciplinary hearing about this?

If I were Mercedes I would be pushing for one in the media. The fact the FIA decided not to give him a DSQ because it would interfere with the championship, is disgusting, and a failure of their duties as stewards.

Fact? is your opinion or perhaps I have missed the statemment where the stewards dediced not to give a DNF to Vettel because of the championship battle.

Thank God someone in the UK doesn´t want to burn Vettel on a pyre:

https://twitter.com/MBrundleF1/status/8 ... 9181275136

I was referring to the rumours that they were close to DSQ'ing Seb but didn't want to interfere with the championship that were published in AMuS yesterday.

Regardless, Brundle has become a corporate muppet since joining Sky. To suggest there has been much worse than deliberately barging into someone is incredibly silly.

[F1NAC]

Is there a chance the FIA may call a disciplinary hearing about this?

If I were Mercedes I would be pushing for one in the media. The fact the FIA decided not to give him a DSQ because it would interfere with the championship, is disgusting, and a failure of their duties as stewards.

Fact? is your opinion or perhaps I have missed the statemment where the stewards dediced not to give a DNF to Vettel because of the championship battle.

Thank God someone in the UK doesn´t want to burn Vettel on a pyre:

https://twitter.com/MBrundleF1/status/8 ... 9181275136

I was referring to the rumours that they were close to DSQ'ing Seb but didn't want to interfere with the championship that were published in AMuS yesterday.

Regardless, Brundle has become a corporate muppet since joining Sky. To suggest there has been much worse than deliberately barging into someone is incredibly silly.

Keyword rumours....

[Gothrek]

Let's wait that one out on the coming days. Emotions and pride are still flowing at sonic speed through Vettel's veins. He might come to realize and to admit he was wrong.

Doubt it, some of us haven't forgotten the way he handled multi21-gate.

Not this crap again...
Did you know there was a multi 12 in an earlier GP that Webber didnt follow?
Seb in the end got past Webber on own merit. (Look it up if you dont believe me) So yes, for it was perfectly normal how he reacted to Multi21.

British press is extremely good at shifting focus. Just as it is doing now.

[Vasconia]

Is there a chance the FIA may call a disciplinary hearing about this?

If I were Mercedes I would be pushing for one in the media. The fact the FIA decided not to give him a DSQ because it would interfere with the championship, is disgusting, and a failure of their duties as stewards.

Fact? is your opinion or perhaps I have missed the statemment where the stewards dediced not to give a DNF to Vettel because of the championship battle.

Thank God someone in the UK doesn´t want to burn Vettel on a pyre:

https://twitter.com/MBrundleF1/status/8 ... 9181275136

I was referring to the rumours that they were close to DSQ'ing Seb but didn't want to interfere with the championship that were published in AMuS yesterday.

Regardless, Brundle has become a corporate muppet since joining Sky. To suggest there has been much worse than deliberately barging into someone is incredibly silly.

I start to have some problems to believe what AMusS writes...

Many people and media in the UK are overreacting, as usual, this is looking more and more like an Inquisition process. What Vettel did was stupid, he was penalized for that. I would have personally added another 10 seconds but its my own opinion.

The more times I saw the footage the more I believe that Vettel lost control. He went totally crazy.

[Vasconia]

Actually, given that vettel punishment was right, I don't have so clear ideas on hamilton behavior before crash

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McK56lTYqCk

Onboard is not a good way of judging it apart from Hamilton's mirror driving control .

- After watching replays it looks worse than live, blatantly slowing down basically mid-to-exit corner, dumbest place to do it and knowing well the other car is close.
- If that's not one sided brake testing I don't know what is. You can stick your half cherry picked, half ignored "data showed".
- Vettel was right to be angry but his reaction was stupid; fortunately LH didn't get away with it.
That's all folks.

I am pretty sure that it was classic Hamilton provocation but I think he didnt expect such an angry reaction from Sebastian. I think(or I hope, I don´t know) that both will be more careful in the future. Or it can be just the opposite, I dont know what to expect from both.

[Vasconia]

http://www.formulapassion.it/2017/06/f1 ... l-trouble/

Not necessarily in agreement with bernie but useful to remind that different opinions are still legal
thanks god.

Ignoring reality as Bernie is doing there (he keep saying Lewis did brake) is also legal, but that does not mean it´s correct, valid or useful...

He did not brake, its pretty clear, but the footage shows that the speed is decreased just in the exit of the corner, where you would not expect it. Hamilton was playing with fire, as he usually has done in many re-starts. Without the crazy reaction of Vettel(once again, I am not justifying what he did), this would be another debatable tactic from Lewis.

[djos]

Not this crap again...
Did you know there was a multi 12 in an earlier GP that Webber didnt follow?
Seb in the end got past Webber on own merit. (Look it up if you dont believe me) So yes, for it was perfectly normal how he reacted to Multi21.

British press is extremely good at shifting focus. Just as it is doing now.

Ok, not a great example ... lets use Turkey 2010 - the crash was 100% Vettel's fault but he and Marko blamed Webber for not using beaming technology or magic to remove his car from the track.

[Manoah2u]

dangerous driving - 10 second stop and go penalty ] done and dished, nothing wrong with that.
causing a collision - 5 second time penalty ] he was responsible in the fullest for contact with hamilton's rear end, this penalty was NEVER SERVED
causing a collision - 5 second time penalty ] apart from dangerous driving, he caused yet another collision when he 'dangerously drove' into lewis side.

Not sure I agree with all of that, but to stir the pot again:
* Didn't SV get his nose ahead of LH under the safety car too?

I don't know the exact wording of the no overtaking under the safety car rule, but that's another one to throw in.

yes, forgot to mention that too.

process of applicable penalties - and that doesnt mean they should all be enforced, but according to the rules, all of the following were rule breaches of Sebastian Vettel, and Sebastian Vettel alone ;

- causing a collision (backside of lewis car, additionally causing damage) behind Safety Car
- dangerous driving (no hands on the steering wheel and agressive behavior) behind Safety Car
- causing a collision (in the side of Lewis, concious or not, there was contact) behind Safety Car
- overtaking during the safety car (he was briefly in front, GPS proveable)

4 clear and definate infractions.

There has been mention the stewards concidered disqualifying Vettel (black flag) for his infractions,
but ultimately decided not to out of fear of consequences on the title challenge - which to me is the biggest
bollocks i've heared ever and is a clear indication Ferrari is playing politics with FIA.

i was really surprised by the low penalty seeing as how in Canada, Kvyat got a rediculous 2 penalties for something one could even wonder whether he should have had a penalty at all.

wasn't there also something about 'putting the sport in discredit' that was penalisable aswell? probably through a fine though.

Also, how did the FIA not favour Vettel with the nose change in the pit fastlane?
and then i haven't mentioned Charlie Whitings laughable and embarassing non-punishment of Vettel when he was miles out of the square on the start during the first or second race......really.

let's take something from the Sporting regulations

"Unless it is clear to the stewards that a driver was wholly or predominantly to blame for an incident no penalty will be imposed."

Article 38.2a of the 2017 FIA Sporting Regulations

It was 100% clear that Vettel was wholly and predominantly to blame for all 4 of the above incidents,
yet only a 10 second stop-and-go penalty was issued.

In extreme cases stewards may choose to enforce tougher penalties. They can drop a driver any number of grid positions at the next Grand Prix; impose time penalties; reprimand a driver; exclude a driver from the results; or suspend a driver from the next race.

none of such happened.

[SiLo]

The problem is it has set a precedent now, what if it was the lead driver who was maybe lapping someone and was over 30 seconds ahead of second place? It pretty much wouldn't affect them at all.

[Big Mangalhit]

I think people are overreacting so much. I for one really enjoyed the nudge, it was raw and hot!
It's the kind of thing that if the season continues with this trend will make this an absolute classic maybe even worth of a movie. Arguably 2 of the best drivers in the current era in two of the best teams ever going all out crazy against each other. Man I am so excited for every race this year.

And I know I will get a lot of bash because of safety but I think that is a big overreaction. It was not so unsafe to give a bump tyre on tyre at 50km/h. And no wishbones don't break that easily otherwise we would have so much more catastrophic events. Heck how many times did we see tyre go against tyre at much harder speed, or worse tyre against wall! I mean even this GP many drivers touched the wall with quite more energy and came out fine. Ofc it could've gone wrong but like everything in F1 there is a degree of risk and tbh it was totally acceptable. Not worse than some inside corners dive bombs and whatnot.

Just to be clear I am not arguing about the penalties and whatnot, I am not trying to be a judge here, just a fan.

I see this kind of statement everywhere, it's so devoid of logic as to be painful.

The speed a car is going forwards has absolutely nothing to do with how fast the car swerves into the other.

You can be going 300kph forward, but move a couple inches to the side and rub tires with almost no force, you can also be going 25kph forward, but swerve a yard to the right in the same time and produce 10 times the actual impact force.

The speed the cars are when going forwards only has to do with the danger if the car does break. I urge people to rewatch the replay from the angle at the front, the impact causes the entire front of Vettel's car to lift off the track, both front wheels get airborne. It wasn't a small impact at all and people judging the forward speed going forwards are completely missing that the relevant force here is the speed going towards the other car.

But apart from all that, intent, intent matters everywhere. Accidental tyre rubbing while travelling at high speed is just that, accidental. Deliberate impact at ANY speed is entirely unacceptable full stop.

You make me laugh. you think a lateral crash with the same impact and the same lateral force is the same going 50km/h as to 300km/h. OFC the lateral energy can be the same but the consequences are mighty different. As you could see on this impact the car moved a metre or so and nothing really happened just a small tap, at 300km/h the car could lose control and hit the wall seriously. At 50km/h nothing really could happen so no need to be a drama queen here.

The suspension parts are quite sturdy and handle much harder touches just see the FP how many drivers hit the wall sideways which are way worse at absorbing the energy as tyres. And you want better proof that the suspension doesn't break with that kind of tap? Well the best proof was that it didn't.

I stand by my point, regardless of if it was fair or unfair (which as I said I really don't care to comment cause there is already +100 opinions on that and I wanted to bring a different approach) is was entertaining, it was hot and good for the rivalry it was good for the sport. And no I don't think there was nothing dangerous to it. But everybody always cries that they are putting X or Y life in danger but to me that is just a huge overreaction which anybody who tries to contradict will always be labeled crazy or insensitive.