Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[restless]

Wild guess, bu t maybe as with gearboxes?
RB supplies Mclaren, Mclaren supplies TR, until they are ok with own custom one?

[wuzak]

Wild guess, bu t maybe as with gearboxes?
RB supplies Mclaren, Mclaren supplies TR, until they are ok with own custom one?

I doubt it.

The main difference in the gearbox will be the way it connects to the engine - the drive shaft and engine mountings.

The engine mounting points are defined in the regulations, so it will be a matter of arranging the connection to clear the turbo, exhaust and accessories.

The drive shaft connection is the main difference to contend with. Whether the clutch is at the back of the engine or the front of the gearbox, the size and mass moment of inertia of the shaft that links the two (gearboxes are mounted remotely).

The ratios may need to be different, but they could change from season to season in any case.

I have little doubt that McLaren will be able to build and field their own gearbox in 2018.

Toro Rosso still build their own gearboxes, with some parts from Red Bull (maybe the gears). I see no major impediment to them building their own gearbox for next year.

Sauber were a different case. They have bought gearboxes from Ferrari for many years, so cannot build their own at the current time. Doubtful that Ferrari would want to adapt their gearbox to the Honda engine if Sauber were to change, hence Sauber needing a gearbox supply from somewhere.

[Craigy]

Toro Rosso still build their own gearboxes, with some parts from Red Bull (maybe the gears). I see no major impediment to them building their own gearbox for next year.

Transmission
Gearbox Maincase: Scuderia Toro Rosso, one piece carbon fibre.
Gears: eight-speed sequential - hydraulically operated.
Supplied by Red Bull Technology.

It's on their webpage. http://www.scuderiatororosso.com/en_GB/car/str12
As an aside, I've seen quite a lot of RBR's manufacturing facilities - they always struck me as being extensive for just pair of cars. I'm pretty confident RBR MK still make a lot of parts for STR, whether on a "contract" basis or otherwise.

In my opinion, it's not too late for either company (McLaren or RBR) to do a gearbox for next year - they both have this years' as a starting point. The late call will probably have an impact (lack of testing) and on optimisations to do the thing properly, but it won't stop them running from the 1st test of 2018.

[Craigy]

Here's a thought:
Renault are already working with BP/Castrol this year with their factory team, and with Esso/Mobil in RBR (and I guess STR).
Honda currently work with BP/Castrol in the McLaren.

Will Honda be back to working with Esso/Mobil again, assuming (as is predicted) they end up powering RBR from 2019+?
In 2018, whose fuel and lubricants are going into the Honda-powered STR? Esso?

[bigblue]

Maybe Red Bull will design a gearbox for the Honda engine so that they're less reliant on McLaren, and with an eye to the (possible) future ?

I'd like to see Honda do their own gearbox to go with the engine, but don't understand whether this is realistic or not, say because the gearboxes are heavily tailored to the chassis ? Also, Honda have little experience in this, maybe it is specialised / quite hard to do well ? Anyone have any insight into that ?

[HPD]

McLaren teams up with Renault for 3-year power unit supply
McLaren and Honda confirm split at end of 2017

[Squid]

I'm a Honda fan, but I doubt Toro Rosso will get better results than McLaren next year.

On promises and expectations, it seems that in this case, Honda made promises based on McLaren's expectations, not the other way around. Poorly managed from the start. Perhaps McLaren wouldn't have agreed to the partnership if Honda had been realistic? What are you gonna say to one of F1's biggest teams when they say they want a competitive engine in the most complex engine formula in the history of F1 ready in 20 months? Why would you ask that from a company that hadn't made an F1 engine in 5 years?

The way I see it, this was doomed to fail from the start. I hope with Toro Rosso we can have a clean slate.

[Del Boy]

Maybe Wazari can confirm or deny if Honda have been working towards these goals? And if spec 4.0 is close to achieving this?

1. The MGUH can provide 2MJ of power into the ES every lap
2. The MGUH can provide the MGUK with 120kW for every second the ICE is at or near WOT
2. The MGUK can provide ???kW (I believe 40kW) of power to keep the turbine spooled during the off throttle phase
3. The ES only needs to provide power for the MGUK when the turbine needs spooling and the ICE is not at full boost pressure

These must be the targets what you achieve is another story, this is the F1 formula for the engine. In other words the MGUK should be providing 120kW when ever the loud pedal is being pushed this in COMBINATION with the ICE is the amount of power to the gearbox/wheels. Hybrid engines are very complex and compound Turbo charging has many compromises, but running the MGUK throughout the lap is essential.

[HPD]

RELATIONSHIP WITH HONDA UNTIL 2020

"I want to thank the Honda bosses for believing in Toro Rosso.

We are proud and look forward to working with them in an exclusive alliance, and I hope we have a successful future.

The gearbox, as in previous years, will make Toro Rosso, "said Tost.

"In the short term, Honda will dramatically improve performance and have a lot of potential.

This season have had many improvements.

I am 100% convinced that Honda will take a big step forward in the near future and in the next three years.

We are very happy to have such a good ally. We will have a very successful season."

- Of the FIA press conference

http://soymotor.com/noticias/tost-y-abi ... sso-939468

[etusch]

Honda aiming top 3 with TR next year. I like to see this confidence

[HPD]

Honda aiming top 3 with TR next year. I like to see this confidence

I think it was a bad translation. Aspiring to be the 3 best in motor.
Was a girl who translated from Japanese to English

[Oonnnn]

Seriously, how do we know Honda over promising things? For all I know it's Hasegawa-san who always play down their gain for each update. McL might have been talking out of their arse for all we know

[damager21]

This is an interesting quote:

Masashi Yamamoto, general manager of Honda's motorsport division, admitted that McLaren had been trying to exit its deal "since the beginning of the season" and that "it is for us a shame and a disappointment that we have to separate".

I am sure this would not have helped Honda much given that there was a breakup threat which was looming since beginning of the season and I am sure they saw it coming.

[wesley123]

This is the most flawed argument possible.

1- They need time, but that's not how F1 works. Honda fell victim of its own promises, I doubt Mclaren would be ditching them if they told they would need 4 years to be competitive and Mclaren agreed with that. Both Mclaren e Honda didnt met their targets in this partnership.

You can't just dump something in the back somewhere a year behind everyone else and expect to be on the front of the grid.
Dennis' idea was that with Honda they could strengthen their brand through reference of the past, as well as enjoy the benefits of being a factory team, a status they long enjoyed with Mercedes. This implies a long term goal. And thus, there would be time.

If time was available or not is debatable, but what I'm certain of is that jumping ship immediately when things don't go well isn't a recipe for success.

I agree though that they both did not meet their targets.

2- F1 is always moving, the argument that 'since one team gone bad they can never go back' is absurd.

I have no doubt that teams can improve. However, McLaren does not 'show' any signs of improvement themselves.

The full status is anyone's guess. But from 2015 compared to now there imo isn't much improved in McLaren itself. And changes like these will simply hurt team morale.
Zak Brown has said many things about the possibility of joining other series, which makes McLarens future anyones guess.

Since the time cited, Mclaren have gone through a huge reestructuring and although last year chassis didnt impressed me too much, the Mcl 32 looks solid, needs work too do but has being praised as being one of the best.

McLaren is behind on development, has been for years now, and it is something that they need to overcome. They do not show any signs of actually overcoming this deficit.

Whereas many teams around them have heavily developed the barge board area, McLarens' is still largely the same as it was at launch.

I simply don't think it is reasonable that Honda gets all the blame, when McLaren themselves are behind on development.

3- Following that, it's very unlikely, even if Honda match Renault in 2018, that TR will be ahead of Mclaren. I would like to believe that Mclaren is taking a very calculated move. They know Honda plans for 2018, they have the numbers, even so they have gone with Renault. I dont think that is much of a gamble. TR can be great with extra cash to develop their car, but they are nowhere near Mclaren right now.

Toro Rosso is doing a lot with the limited resources that they have, and have outperformed McLaren in the past few years. Toro Rosso will gain a lot of resources with Honda, and McLaren loses this. It is unsure how McLaren is going to deal with this loss of resources. Sure, the Renault might be better, but they are literally a customer and will lose all benefits being a factory squad brings with them. And being a factory team means a whole lot on motorsports these days.

[MrPotatoHead]

I think some people here live in a dream world.
Honda under delivered, McLaren gave up on them after 3 years of public humilation.

Some people here seem to have a false sense of where the failure in the relationship is.
Do you know the last time McLaren finished outside of the top 5 in the Constructors until the new Honda relationship?
1981.

In the 36 years since then they have mostly been in the top 3 almost every year, with a few rare 5th position results.
McLaren aren't the ones who have failed the last 3 years it's Honda.

And yeah the Renault is such a terrible engine barely better than the Honda... that's why Red Bull have 212 points this year so far in 3rd place and McLaren have how many with Honda?

I wanted Honda to succeed with McLaren as much as anyone but some people here are smoking something.