Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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NutritionFact
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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Dont know this, and why we have discussions about the Red Bull livery? And nothing about Williams?
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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I think it's probably easier for folks to accept that Williams' matte livery is just an aesthetic thing - if they even noticed it at all. But, when it's Red Bull/Newey, it becomes easier to entertain other possibilities, even though it's still just an aesthetic thing.

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bdr529
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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J.A.W. wrote:
bdr529 wrote: Sure bdr..., check http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org - the Mosquito section shows a similar ( ~8mph)
loss in speed from the matte paint finish as the failure to maintain a "careful" attention to fine paint-surface finish detail.
( & DH factory testing showed even greater drag effects from the contrast).

While paint has no doubt changed since WW2 ( not least due to solvent regs), practical effects of fineness on speed - remain.
There is no information on the 2 types of paint they used, it just says flat/matt black paint and smooth black paint

Did both paints have the same Molar mass?
Did they each receive the exact film thickness?
Did the matt black need a primer coat first, due to lack of adhesion to bare metal, and not the smooth black?
If they both needed a primer coat, did they use the same primer for both top coats?
If they needed 2 different primers, what's the molar mass of the different primers?
And did they have the same film thickness?

They do say that "The tests were made at a weight of 18,530 lb."
I find it a little hard to believe that they managed to strip a plain down to bare metal and repaint it, and still come out with the exact same weight, the only difference being the type of paint used, they were not painted by robots and there should be some difference due to human error. an extra 500ml of paint used would equal around 1 lb

There also is some discrepancy in the findings between the test performed by de Havilland and the
Aeroplane & Armament Experimental Establishment regarding the speeds obtained between the same paints.
along with a difference in roughness of the matt black and the smoothness of the smooth black, between the 2 different test performed by each of the parties involved.
Image

Are you stating that the "rough" matte paint used in the war on the the Mosquito/Spitfire,
has the same texture as the matte paint finish on the Red Bull???

As for your statement "While paint has no doubt changed since WW2 ( not least due to solvent regs)"
the biggest change was the resins and binders used in paints, between the 40's and 60's
the need to remove VOC's and solvents use in paints didn't start till the 80's and 90's

And lastly the article I posted earlier by Hot Rod mag. is referencing Gary Eaker former senior project engineer from GM's Advanced Aero Group, former aerodynamicist for Hendrick Motorsports. and now founder and owner of
both A2 wind tunnel and AeroDyn wind tunnel

Once again you disagree with a reference I've used, then please write him a letter and tell him he's full of S**t
Gary Eaker @ A2 Wind Tunnel, 117 Godspeed Ln, Mooresville, NC 28115, United Sates

J.A.W.
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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[quote="bdr529]
They do say that "The tests were made at a weight of 18,530 lb."
I find it a little hard to believe that they managed to strip a plain down to bare metal and repaint it, and still come out with the exact same weight, the only difference being the type of paint used, they were not painted by robots and there should be some difference due to human error. an extra 500ml of paint used would equal around 1 lb
There also is some discrepancy in the findings between the test performed by de Havilland and the
Aeroplane & Armament Experimental Establishment regarding the speeds obtained between the same paints.
Are you stating that the "rough" matte paint used in the war on the the Mosquito/Spitfire,
has the same texture as the matte paint finish on the Red Bull???
And lastly the article I posted earlier by Hot Rod mag. is referencing Gary Eaker former senior project engineer from GM's Advanced Aero Group, former aerodynamicist for Hendrick Motorsports. and now founder and owner of
both A2 wind tunnel and AeroDyn wind tunnel
Once again you disagree with a reference I've used, then please write him a letter and tell him he's full of S**t
Gary Eaker @ A2 Wind Tunnel, 117 Godspeed Ln, Mooresville, NC 28115, United Sates[/quote]


Ok bdr...
1stly, test weights of the aircraft were of course - standardized/equalized to ensure the test parameters were too..
( & yeah, this is a normative technical/scientific routine)..

2ndly, the Mosquito airframe was wood, & compared to a rivet-festooned multi-joint metal design had naturally smooth panels..
However, the night-fighter Mosquito did revert to the standard day-fighter paint scheme, per the Spitfire/Tempest, etc..

& De Havilland also considered the apparent test outcome discrepancy, & attributed it to finish/fineness of the applied paints on test being significantly different, since the aircraft were not ( this point is mentioned in the report at the site as linked)..

As for application of such a label, "F.o.S" - simply for publishing his own findings.. which show the limitations of his equipment,
that would be - IMO - rudely improper.. on a technical/scientific level.. & amounts to a coarse appreciation of events..

But if you wish to contact him with a meta-analysis of the research literature findings.. of the matter at hand.. go for it..
Could be a GM-scholarship award to help you with your thesis.. in it for you...
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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Obviously, an expensive competition machine that utilizes aero-lift ( - or +) via foil-form devices..
.. is likely to garner a higher level of scientific attention to detail.. than a passenger Chev..
..yes, even one optimized for low-drag high-speed running..

Drag reduction is a technical issue for F1 , as a competition variable, - speed-wise - even if they do not cruise at ~400mph..

Check out the fine/smooth/glossy finish on the wing leading-edges of this sleekly aero-detailed, but ~70 y/o - P-51H Mustang..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfPOVWOIL8M

Does anyone have access to drag-data on the matte finish as applied to the RBR machines?
Or pix detailing their wing leading-edge fineness of finish?
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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If Matte paint was so good at reducing drag, every commercial airline would use it, but they aren't. They are still using gloss paints.

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FW17
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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Performance of the matte paint is debatable but the finish certainly lets people appreciate the details of the Red Bull car more than the others. The lack of reflections off the car ceratainly makes it easier to read the shape, lines, slopes, edges etc. on the car. Not sure if the Red Bull designers would appreciate that.

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FW17
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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PlatinumZealot wrote:If Matte paint was so good at reducing drag, every commercial airline would use it, but they aren't. They are still using gloss paints.

Actually they are trying to do some riblet treatment on the aircrafts.
Ultra-smooth surfaces reduce friction at slow speed but at high speed the riblets are more effective, despite increasing an aircraft's surface area because they cut drag by reducing turbulence perpendicular to the airflow.

Application is a challenge. Any practical coating must stay soft long enough to allow the riblets to be impressed into its surface, but then harden rapidly to freeze the delicate texture. This has been achieved with a paint containing only a small amount of volatile solvents, formulated for curing within seconds under ultraviolet light.

Aside from repelling dirt, the coating must also maintain its surface texture during use by remaining resistant over a long time to the abrasion and erosion resulting from the physical impact of dust, sand or hail, or the chemical action of de-icing fluid. And, as with regular aircraft exterior paint, it must be flexible to endure the fuselage's expansion and contraction during flight cycles and withstand intense UV radiation without weathering.

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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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it's pure visual. This way, the sponsor logo's aren't obstructed by reflections anymore. I presume next year all teams will have matte paint jobs (as long as they have sponsors)

Just look at some pics from GP's, half the cars are shiny in the light, that's wasted space. valuable wasted space.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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FW17 wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote:If Matte paint was so good at reducing drag, every commercial airline would use it, but they aren't. They are still using gloss paints.

Actually they are trying to do some riblet treatment on the aircrafts.
Ultra-smooth surfaces reduce friction at slow speed but at high speed the riblets are more effective, despite increasing an aircraft's surface area because they cut drag by reducing turbulence perpendicular to the airflow.

Application is a challenge. Any practical coating must stay soft long enough to allow the riblets to be impressed into its surface, but then harden rapidly to freeze the delicate texture. This has been achieved with a paint containing only a small amount of volatile solvents, formulated for curing within seconds under ultraviolet light.

Aside from repelling dirt, the coating must also maintain its surface texture during use by remaining resistant over a long time to the abrasion and erosion resulting from the physical impact of dust, sand or hail, or the chemical action of de-icing fluid. And, as with regular aircraft exterior paint, it must be flexible to endure the fuselage's expansion and contraction during flight cycles and withstand intense UV radiation without weathering.
Riblets are more topographical effect though. The RedBull is Matte but the actual surface is still a smooth one. I think they should not be confused.

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FW17
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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I dont think with riblets of 10 µm , you will able to tell the difference

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DiogoBrand
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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Seriously people, Williams has been using a matte finish since 2014, and if there was such a significant advantage, the people from Renault would make the entire car in a matte finish instead of just that pattern at the rear end of the car.
Now, just because it's Red Bull doing it it must be some sort of Newey aerodynamic sorcery. :|

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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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DiogoBrand wrote:Seriously people, Williams has been using a matte finish since 2014, and if there was such a significant advantage, the people from Renault would make the entire car in a matte finish instead of just that pattern at the rear end of the car.
Now, just because it's Red Bull doing it it must be some sort of Newey aerodynamic sorcery. :|

Yeah, since a coarse matte finish, would if anything - tend towards a negative aero-performance impact..
..it is very likely a (per 'Occam's Razor') - sponsorship driven - 'POP!' - visual impact/specular image contrast - finish issue..

Has anyone noticed - if the 'flat-look' finish is coarse enough - to retain a markedly higher level of road grime, during a wet race?
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bdr529
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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I can't answer to the claim of sorcery :lol:
As for nobody noticing Williams use of a matte finish, with out a direct comparison, it can be
difficult to tell with white, unlike the darker colours you kind of need to be standing close to it.
Image

But both teams may be using a clear coat with titanium dioxide in it. Similar to the coatings used in
self-cleaning glass or Nissan self-cleaning car, (hydrophobic and hydrophilic coatings)
and apparently also being used by other teams, just in a high gloss finish.
The clarity of these coatings can be adjusted by using a larger size of pigment particle,
giving the coating a more opaque look.

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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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bdr529 wrote:I can't answer to the claim of sorcery :lol:
As for nobody noticing Williams use of a matte finish, with out a direct comparison, it can be
difficult to tell with white, unlike the darker colours you kind of need to be standing close to it.
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h217/ ... b8i37w.jpg

But both teams may be using a clear coat with titanium dioxide in it. Similar to the coatings used in
self-cleaning glass or Nissan self-cleaning car, (hydrophobic and hydrophilic coatings)
and apparently also being used by other teams, just in a high gloss finish.
The clarity of these coatings can be adjusted by using a larger size of pigment particle,
giving the coating a more opaque look.
For Williams.. to provide a flat/refractive base for a pop-out specular/3D look.. sponsor image-wise, sure, why not..

(fun fact: white is not a colour and black is the culmination of all colours.)
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