Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

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Postmoe
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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by Postmoe » Sun Nov 06, 2016 12:57 pm

I think that, in order to understand this PU vs Chassis dilema, a little bit more focus should be put around tyres.

Pirelli is using some counter-intuitive logic in the way they set up their compounds and some cars seem to be extremelly sensitive to those "living organisms" inhabiting the rubber.

Also, to extend the causistic entropy of this system, breaks seem to be important: as McLaren excels in this area to the point that I consider them at least top 3. Interestingly, in this formula breaking management has also a lot to do with the PU.

Power circuits are usually also breaking circuits.

diffuser
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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by diffuser » Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:50 pm

I agree tires are important and the whole package is important.

Does the PU have a high center of gravity? With the compressor where it is, it results in the intake being VERY high. Is the PU center of gravity higher than everyone else ? If it is, this will likely cause issues when trying to change direction at high speed or high speed corners.

In Austin I saw Alonzo have problems getting the power down in the first corner. It wasn't the typical getting power down issues. It appeared that the PU took a HUGE jump in power. There could be drive-ability issues.

mrluke
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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by mrluke » Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:46 pm

Postmoe wrote: Also, to extend the causistic entropy of this system, breaks seem to be important: as McLaren excels in this area to the point that I consider them at least top 3. Interestingly, in this formula breaking management has also a lot to do with the PU.
Do you have anything to show this other than quotes from Mclaren?

For what its worth, I would consider tyre management / utilization to be the primary purpose of the chassis.

mclaren111
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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by mclaren111 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:18 am

diffuser:
In Austin I saw Alonzo have problems getting the power down in the first corner. It wasn't the typical getting power down issues. It appeared that the PU took a HUGE jump in power. There could be drive-ability issues.

Honda is known for its poor driveability :( :(

Karun Chandhok commented on the poor driveability at the Singapore GP as well !!

mrluke
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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by mrluke » Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:24 pm

Okay here is a link to the results from 2014,15 and 16, based on the races completed in 2016.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B11hzw ... sp=sharing

Two health warnings:
1. Google sheets cannot understand "time" format cells, you will need to download and edit in excel if you want to play with it.
2. When comparing teams, pretty much any two you pick tend to have an "okay" correlation and this tends to be a reflection of Mercedes' performance. Comparisons between individual teams needs to take into account this wider context.

The below chart uses the Honda 16 performance as a baseline and shows how the other teams compare which takes away some of the distortion of where Mercedes is particularly strong or weak (see Belgium, Italy, Singapore).

Image

This chart compares Honda against the rest of the midfield which shows us that Mclaren performed particularly well in Hungary making ground on both their competitors and Mercedes. In contrast to Belgium where actually it was Mercedes that lost ground to everybody else.

Image

And finally comparison to the other works teams.

Point of interest here is how consistent RBR are against Mercedes from around Canada onwards, other than Belgium and Italy they have followed Mercedes very closely. I would suggest that the Renault PU is really not very far behind Mercedes at all.

Ferrari are competitive but just lack consistency, we also know that their race pace is much better than their qualy pace.

Image

Note any and all users are able to add comments to the linked data file, if you find any errors then highlight them in the sheet and I will update.

carisi2k
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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by carisi2k » Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:41 am

As for the Renault being closer to the Mercedes. This is true but the Red Bull is still up to 50hp down on the Merc instead of 100hp like in 2015. Do the Mclaren numbers add in the Alonso effect? Going on Ferrari's results I'm thinking that they might be about 20-30hp down on Mercedes.

Juzh
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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by Juzh » Tue Nov 15, 2016 1:57 pm

Worth mentioning honda pu was particularly bad in brazil in qualifying. They were nowhere on the main straight.

Pierce89
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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by Pierce89 » Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:38 pm

Juzh wrote:Worth mentioning honda pu was particularly bad in brazil in qualifying. They were nowhere on the main straight.
Yeah it was really more noticeable here than most any other track for some reason.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

mrluke
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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by mrluke » Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:54 pm

It could be down to a number of factors including traction from the last corner and drag levels.

However overall Mclaren actually performed pretty well at Brazil, they are about 2% behind pole vs their average of ~2.25% ill pull the data together shortly and reupload the excel with Austria re-labelled as Aut :)

mrluke
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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by mrluke » Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:39 pm

Apologies for the double post,

Chart clearly shows Mclaren performing well at Brazil vs the midfield

Image

The teams that made a step forward at Brazil were Mercedes, Ferrari, Mclaren and Haas (not shown below) the rest of the field fell back in comparison. Not sure what what that really tells us about those teams but they appear to have something in common.

Image

Going back to the older charts again shows the progress Mclaren made against RBR in comparison to the previous grand prix.

Image

And finally for completeness the Mclaren 14,15,16 chart.

Image

Data sheet has been updated and is still available on this link https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B11hzw ... sp=sharing

Juzh
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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by Juzh » Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:29 pm

mrluke wrote:It could be down to a number of factors including traction from the last corner and drag levels.

However overall Mclaren actually performed pretty well at Brazil, they are about 2% behind pole vs their average of ~2.25% ill pull the data together shortly and reupload the excel with Austria re-labelled as Aut :)
No, in brazil the deficit was simply too high even by usual honda standards (we're talking qualifying here). Now I don't know what was going on but it was a really big difference. They were up to 18 kmh down on mercedes powered cars and 10-15 kmh down on renault and ferrari.
I'd say their traction was no worse than a bunch of midfield teams. Most cars were a lot slower in final sector this year than they were last year, indicating they were all running higher drag than they normally would in anticipation of rainy sunday, so I don't think mclaren somehow went completely above and beyond others teams in that respect, given their already underpowered engine.

mrluke
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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by mrluke » Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:19 pm

Juzh wrote:
mrluke wrote:It could be down to a number of factors including traction from the last corner and drag levels.

However overall Mclaren actually performed pretty well at Brazil, they are about 2% behind pole vs their average of ~2.25% ill pull the data together shortly and reupload the excel with Austria re-labelled as Aut :)
No, in brazil the deficit was simply too high even by usual honda standards (we're talking qualifying here). Now I don't know what was going on but it was a really big difference. They were up to 18 kmh down on mercedes powered cars and 10-15 kmh down on renault and ferrari.
I'd say their traction was no worse than a bunch of midfield teams. Most cars were a lot slower in final sector this year than they were last year, indicating they were all running higher drag than they normally would in anticipation of rainy sunday, so I don't think mclaren somehow went completely above and beyond others teams in that respect, given their already underpowered engine.
Okay, that's a fair point. Lets dig out the (limited) available data and see what we can find.

Image

Looking into this it has quickly become apparent that the Speed Trap (90m before T1) is actually just after the start of the braking zone for most drivers.

So I have made a chart (gasp!) to show the differences in speeds between the end of Sector 3 (start/finish) and the speed trap.

Image

Although drivers are shown individually both drivers of the same team have the same colour.

As most of the teams have slowed down between the end of S3 and the speed trap it is safe to assume that they are preparing for T1 rather than still accelerating to Vmax. Therefore the biggest driver for their speed at this point is T1.

So I think you have two choices here, either the slow teams are braking sooner for T1, or they just have a much lower entry speed.

Now I agree that Mclaren are one of the lower teams at the start/finish line, but looking at the way Button and Alonso's lines converge they appear to be aiming for the same entry speed / braking point.

In contrast both Mercedes are not only traveling 5kph faster at the finish line, they continue to accelerate through the speed trap meaning they have speed differentially >10kph at the speed trap.

If we look at the fastest mclaren driver over the start/finish, they are actually within 1kph of BOTH RBR drivers at this point. While one of the RBR drivers decelerates in line with Mclaren, the other continues to add speed gaining a further 5kph against Mclaren.

Finally I draw your attention to the HAAS and STR drivers which appear to accelerate through the speed trap and gain much more speed over this distance than any of the other teams, suggesting most others are slowing.

Juzh
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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by Juzh » Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:51 pm

mrluke wrote:
Juzh wrote:
mrluke wrote:It could be down to a number of factors including traction from the last corner and drag levels.

However overall Mclaren actually performed pretty well at Brazil, they are about 2% behind pole vs their average of ~2.25% ill pull the data together shortly and reupload the excel with Austria re-labelled as Aut :)
No, in brazil the deficit was simply too high even by usual honda standards (we're talking qualifying here). Now I don't know what was going on but it was a really big difference. They were up to 18 kmh down on mercedes powered cars and 10-15 kmh down on renault and ferrari.
I'd say their traction was no worse than a bunch of midfield teams. Most cars were a lot slower in final sector this year than they were last year, indicating they were all running higher drag than they normally would in anticipation of rainy sunday, so I don't think mclaren somehow went completely above and beyond others teams in that respect, given their already underpowered engine.
Okay, that's a fair point. Lets dig out the (limited) available data and see what we can find.

http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/ ... k=JsTaU1nl

Looking into this it has quickly become apparent that the Speed Trap (90m before T1) is actually just after the start of the braking zone for most drivers.

So I have made a chart (gasp!) to show the differences in speeds between the end of Sector 3 (start/finish) and the speed trap.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... rmat=image

Although drivers are shown individually both drivers of the same team have the same colour.

As most of the teams have slowed down between the end of S3 and the speed trap it is safe to assume that they are preparing for T1 rather than still accelerating to Vmax. Therefore the biggest driver for their speed at this point is T1.

So I think you have two choices here, either the slow teams are braking sooner for T1, or they just have a much lower entry speed.

Now I agree that Mclaren are one of the lower teams at the start/finish line, but looking at the way Button and Alonso's lines converge they appear to be aiming for the same entry speed / braking point.

In contrast both Mercedes are not only traveling 5kph faster at the finish line, they continue to accelerate through the speed trap meaning they have speed differentially >10kph at the speed trap.

If we look at the fastest mclaren driver over the start/finish, they are actually within 1kph of BOTH RBR drivers at this point. While one of the RBR drivers decelerates in line with Mclaren, the other continues to add speed gaining a further 5kph against Mclaren.

Finally I draw your attention to the HAAS and STR drivers which appear to accelerate through the speed trap and gain much more speed over this distance than any of the other teams, suggesting most others are slowing.
I've watched qualifying onboard with telemetry overlay. Honda was utter ---, much worse than renault, end of story. Chances of mclaren running higher drag than the rest of the field? Slim, no reason to do so. Official "speed trap" data is useless in interlagos, everyone knows this. Half the field is braking into T1 before the speed trap beam.

Q onboard. Compare all other cars to mchonda.
https://fpdl.vimeocdn.com/vimeo-prod-sk ... 60c439ad0d

mrluke
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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by mrluke » Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:47 pm

The Mclaren drivers were within 1kph of rbr at the start finish line, there is nothing to argue about that is simply what happened.

I agree with you that the speed trap gives a distorted view.

From your comments I get the impression you didn't read my post, just skimmed it and jumped to conclusions.

Paul
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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by Paul » Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:50 am

One of the reasons for running higher downforce than most could be that the MP4-31 seems to be particularly bad in wet weather and they were trying to mitigate it in anticipation of a wet race. History suggests Fernando and Jenson would have had at least one outstanding performance in the wet between them but this season it has mostly been a story of going sideways/backwards or just being plain slow.