Kubica to return to racing .....

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Kubica to return to racing .....

Post by PlatinumZealot » Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:43 am

Hmm return to racing... Was a good story. Is the racing itself a good story though?
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Manoah2u
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Re: Kubica to return to racing .....

Post by Manoah2u » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:26 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:43 am
Hmm return to racing... Was a good story. Is the racing itself a good story though?
Williams isn't a good story.
Kubica still grabbing points in that Williams is a good story yes.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

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Re: Kubica to return to racing .....

Post by izzy » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:53 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:43 am
Hmm return to racing... Was a good story. Is the racing itself a good story though?
Comebacks don't often work in F1 even without the injury, do they. The ones that have have been in a Williams it's true, but in different times

garygph
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Re: Kubica to return to racing .....

Post by garygph » Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:47 pm

I was a big Kubica fan and really wanted him back if he could perform like he used to. Now? I am confused as to what is real or not in the stories about his equipment not being the same and then that is disputed and so on. The pace difference between him and his Russel is just way to big to ignore and also at times so big that there just has to be something seriously wrong somewhere. I struggle to understand that he would voluntarily keep driving if it is apparent that he can no longer be competitive. He cannot enjoy going from track to track knowing that he is going to be shown up by his team mate? Or am I missing something here?

Scorpaguy
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Re: Kubica to return to racing .....

Post by Scorpaguy » Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:37 pm

garygph wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:47 pm
I was a big Kubica fan and really wanted him back if he could perform like he used to. Now? I am confused as to what is real or not in the stories about his equipment not being the same and then that is disputed and so on. The pace difference between him and his Russel is just way to big to ignore and also at times so big that there just has to be something seriously wrong somewhere. I struggle to understand that he would voluntarily keep driving if it is apparent that he can no longer be competitive. He cannot enjoy going from track to track knowing that he is going to be shown up by his team mate? Or am I missing something here?
I like your thought process here. I too have wondered how he can justify such to himself. In recent interviews, he seems defiant and steadfast in his deserving to be in the car. He has won more races than I, so far be it for me to argue against such. Still, I had hoped and continue to wish for more performance. As to the reasons/excuses for the performance difference...ranging from inferior equipment to prodigy team mate...I assume (as in most diametrically opposed argument) the real reasoning is somewhere in the middle of such.

On a more disappointing note, The Williams team placed he, GR, and mechanic or two in some dirt cars for some promotional thing. In this vastly different equipment, GR handed RK his hat in this race. So looking for light at the end of the tunnel is quite hard for us RK supporters.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Kubica to return to racing .....

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:31 am

He is just not the same driver anymore been out of the game too long. Even Schumacher himself took three years to come up to speed. Kimi took three years as well.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

Scorpaguy
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Re: Kubica to return to racing .....

Post by Scorpaguy » Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:32 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:31 am
He is just not the same driver anymore been out of the game too long. Even Schumacher himself took three years to come up to speed. Kimi took three years as well.
...different era now. No one is given years these days.

netoperek
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Re: Kubica to return to racing .....

Post by netoperek » Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:20 pm

Scorpaguy wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:37 pm
garygph wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:47 pm
I was a big Kubica fan and really wanted him back if he could perform like he used to. Now? I am confused as to what is real or not in the stories about his equipment not being the same and then that is disputed and so on. The pace difference between him and his Russel is just way to big to ignore and also at times so big that there just has to be something seriously wrong somewhere. I struggle to understand that he would voluntarily keep driving if it is apparent that he can no longer be competitive. He cannot enjoy going from track to track knowing that he is going to be shown up by his team mate? Or am I missing something here?
I like your thought process here. I too have wondered how he can justify such to himself. In recent interviews, he seems defiant and steadfast in his deserving to be in the car. He has won more races than I, so far be it for me to argue against such. Still, I had hoped and continue to wish for more performance. As to the reasons/excuses for the performance difference...ranging from inferior equipment to prodigy team mate...I assume (as in most diametrically opposed argument) the real reasoning is somewhere in the middle of such.

On a more disappointing note, The Williams team placed he, GR, and mechanic or two in some dirt cars for some promotional thing. In this vastly different equipment, GR handed RK his hat in this race. So looking for light at the end of the tunnel is quite hard for us RK supporters.
There's a lot of ifs and but's in here. Lets not forget that Kubica hasn't been sitting idle for those years when he was out of F1, He won WRC2 title in his first try, even though racing and rallying are as far between as it gets in motorsport. In all his cameos, be it GT3, DTM or others in this mean time, he was immediately on par with regulars, sometimes flat out beating them on his first day. On his first trial for F1, with renault, he smacked Sirotikin by 0.7s in a car that Sergey used regularily for training. Same Sirotkin that "officially" with Williams suddenly became faster, when big money was at stake. It doesn't serve well for abandoning ever surfacing rumors for Williams actively promoting GR. Bigger issue is with the gaps between them. On some tracks it's 0.1s on others its over 1s and it's usually smaller on "driver's" tracks. If that isn't fishy then tell me what is.
When You look at onboards from Kubica's Qs and races, You can see that he's pretty much on the limit. Maybe 0.1 or 0.2 could be extracted on some ocasions, but that's pretty much it. On Russels onboards, car is steady, he doesn't need to be so aggressive with the wheel even though he carries much more speed into the corners. That shouldn't be possible with equal equipment. Then there are all speculations about engines. First those rumors about Russel getting specs equal with Lewis and Vatteri, and Robert getting what other "customer" teams are getting. I don't know any ways to verify such things so let's put that aside. Then there are journalists analysis, first resulting with completely different sound as a hint of something fishy regarding at least different modes allowed in races and qualis, then analisis of acceleration times, resulting in Kubica's car being considerably weaker or carrying more drag - the latter rather unlikely due to much lower grip observed on onboards.

What makes me, personally, really baffled and still convinced that Kubica is certainly NOT that slower than GR (I don't assume Kubica is faster than GR, I think they could be more less on par) is how Williams explains such differences (when they do) and what kind of a man Kubica is and always has been.
George on more than one occasion said that he is faster because he is better "engineer driver" than Kubica. Same Kubica which has been through his entire career considered as as good as it gets in this regards. Reputation which made Mercedes hire him to work for them on their first and second successful championship contenders.
For some time Robert openly said there was something wrong with his car and that it IS different, at some point he and the journalists interviewing him or anyone at Williams has been banned from bringing the subject. Even GR at some point admitted cars behave differently. There was even some statements at some point suggesting actual downforce factors of a difference. After the ban, only official info is "cars are the same" and "GR is a prodigy, future of the sport, etc". More less in the same period GR started to bring Mercedes name to the interviews as regurarily as Williams and started boasting more.
Then there is the man's character itself. This guy is a perfectionist and harshest critic of himself. He stayed that long from F1 because he said he doesn't feel he is 100% ready, only about 95%. It was enough for winning rallies and occasional races of other forms, but that was not enough for this guy. It's a kind of man, who analise his mistakes in winning races. Never trully satisfied with his perfomance. When his Qually in 2012 Monaco I belive has been voted as the best drive of the year, he was more about that he could go a tiny bit better in one corner.
He's not a kind of man that would continue driving if he was beaten fair and square by a rookie. He is an incarnation of ultracompetitive perfectionist.

I hate "consipiracy theories" without proper reasoning and profit from such actions, so let us all, for a sport, consider pro's and con's. I'll start.

Pro1. Williams loves money. We don't know what Kubica's and Orlen's contracts holds, but assuming there is some "performance" clause, which would be logical in a competition, this might be an attempt to make space for Latifi or any other driver with substantial cash with him, without breaking deals with Orlen.
Pro2. GR is a Mercedes driver and a Brit in British team. This always can be sold. First part - Mercedes can have it's business in making a grander name for their future prospect (or trade stock), than what simply driving in a dead last car would bring. Trashing a veteran, GP winner, a driver considered on par with likes of Hamilton and Alonso in his days (directly by those drives themselves) and with such story behind him makes some wind and gives at least such opportunity to shine. That part fits well with all those engine rumors as well.
Cons:
None, they are dead last anyway. They're not in position to fight with other teams by a large margin, so there's no penalty for hindering one driver's performance in grid positions.
That sole point for Robert is most ironic here.
EDIT: One thing I should add. I'm not certain of anything. May be that Robert's times are past and/or George is a talent of Lewises caliber. This post is not meant to spread "facts", it's to express my doubts, which Williams in my opinion only fuels.

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Re: Kubica to return to racing .....

Post by Phil » Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:44 pm

You are insane if you think Williams value some money from Mercedes more than actually performing with both drivers and actually satisfying their (non Mercedes) sponsors and image.

I also dont buy the two different car fantasy. Kubicas car looks on edge because he is overdriving, most probably not dealing with the tires as well as Russel is. Williams have nothing to gain by having Kubica underperforming. In fact, they desperately need him to.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Manoah2u
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Re: Kubica to return to racing .....

Post by Manoah2u » Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:15 am

Phil wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:44 pm
You are insane if you think Williams value some money from Mercedes more than actually performing with both drivers and actually satisfying their (non Mercedes) sponsors and image.

I also dont buy the two different car fantasy. Kubicas car looks on edge because he is overdriving, most probably not dealing with the tires as well as Russel is. Williams have nothing to gain by having Kubica underperforming. In fact, they desperately need him to.
tone it down will you.
i think you're the one who needs to review your thoughts.
fact is, if you concider Williams actions before Kubica, it shows they actually do just that,
value money more than talent. Stroll, Sirotkin, Maldonado.
And then i haven't mentioned their 'test' drivers etc.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

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Re: Kubica to return to racing .....

Post by Phil » Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:33 am

Money for drivers yes, just as Kubica is paying for his seat. Not money to have one driver perform while the other doesnt in some ploy to achieve what exactly? Make one driver seem better than he is? And what good will come off that exactly? Williams is facing a huge crysis here, one i am not entirely sure they will recover from. All the money from sponsors will be worthless if they no longer want to be sponsored due to their lack of competitivenesss.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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garygph
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Re: Kubica to return to racing .....

Post by garygph » Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:18 pm

Good points on every side, although choosing to ignore some others ;), but that is just my point. It is very confusing. As for the conspiracy against Kubica theories, well I struggle on that one for lots of reasons but a very big one is that something of that magnitude in a team would be nigh on impossible to keep secret. It would involve to many individuals and the fallout of being exposed doing that would far outweigh any benefits of that scheme I would think. BUT, too be THAT far behind your teammate and not be dumped or leave during the season is also very very weird if it was pure driver related. Soooo I am back to square one! #-o :lol:

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Re: Kubica to return to racing .....

Post by netoperek » Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:32 pm

garygph wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:18 pm
Good points on every side, although choosing to ignore some others ;), but that is just my point. It is very confusing. As for the conspiracy against Kubica theories, well I struggle on that one for lots of reasons but a very big one is that something of that magnitude in a team would be nigh on impossible to keep secret. It would involve to many individuals and the fallout of being exposed doing that would far outweigh any benefits of that scheme I would think. BUT, too be THAT far behind your teammate and not be dumped or leave during the season is also very very weird if it was pure driver related. Soooo I am back to square one! #-o :lol:
I think neither stance in here - be it "Williams is doing nasty things" or "everything they say is true" might be completely valid and situation in Williams might be much more complex.
Williams has even admitted they have problems with manufacturing process, still blaming pre season delay for that IIRC :)
Hence differences in cars may very well be there, but not as a result of an evil plot. Having all the good parts put on one car rather then the other when it's more convienient to Your agenda is another thing. --- happend anyway, lets make sure we can take something out of it. As You do, I don't think they deliberately made a faulty car from the beginning, but it looks plausible to me that the could want to use it for their benefit using reasoning I presented previously. This might of course go deeper. I guess if You're commited enough You can find a dozen ways to conduct such schemes. Williams isn't very much observed right now, it's pretty much evident. That gives you some more play room. I look more closely into what is going on there, since Williams has always been one of my favourites, even before Kubica entered F1. I was pretty much convinced that they have quite a few problems within the team and just don't have enough talent and work force within to give both drivers optimal care, so they just picked their horse. When You have Paul (Roberts race engineer) being schooled about what settings to use and he admits it after asking further on the pitwall, that's more incompetence than bad will on his part I'd say. But when You have orders made to reduce power when Robert is in front for George to catch up, then this is deliberate action. Granted, there has been team orders favouring one at the cost of another at all teams and its quite normal those days, but when You hear Robert's resignated "I though the driver in front gets priority over driver who is behind" in Monaco, after they made what they could to make sure George is in front, then You question their motives.

Scorpaguy
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Re: Kubica to return to racing .....

Post by Scorpaguy » Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:57 pm

...as long as we are discussing conspiracy theories:

GR has a multiple year contract. In year one of this contact the Williams team sees that he is excelling, so much so that they become worried of him being poached. So it is then devised to initiate team orders to make GR appear to have MV like talents so that when he is poached the poaching team has to pay Williams big bucks. Meanwhile, Kub continues to deliver journeyman performance that the engineers use to improve the car. Thus the situation brings both needed cash and data for 2020.

Granted the above seems far-fetched to me as such cash would be a relatively meager amount. And then there is Ocam's razor...GR is simply younger and better with Kub being injured and rusty. If this is the case, I really see no harm in the situation...Williams has a young talent extracting more from the car than is actually there and an experienced driver to glean data from.

netoperek
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Re: Kubica to return to racing .....

Post by netoperek » Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:08 pm

Scorpaguy wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:57 pm
...as long as we are discussing conspiracy theories:

GR has a multiple year contract. In year one of this contact the Williams team sees that he is excelling, so much so that they become worried of him being poached. So it is then devised to initiate team orders to make GR appear to have MV like talents so that when he is poached the poaching team has to pay Williams big bucks. Meanwhile, Kub continues to deliver journeyman performance that the engineers use to improve the car. Thus the situation brings both needed cash and data for 2020.

Granted the above seems far-fetched to me as such cash would be a relatively meager amount. And then there is Ocam's razor...GR is simply younger and better with Kub being injured and rusty. If this is the case, I really see no harm in the situation...Williams has a young talent extracting more from the car than is actually there and an experienced driver to glean data from.
Good points. I think though that injury is not a thing anymore as Monaco which was supposed to be the biggest issue has arguably been Robert's best race yet.