Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
The conditions are the same as the were when McLaren dropped Merc. The board believes (whether it is true or not) that they can't win a championship without being a works team and I doubt McLaren would be happy trundling around and making up the numbers with a Merc/Renault engine in the back. Honda is, sadly, their only option.
I note that JA's article makes a big point about potentially losing Alonso. Alonso is a great driver but, as a manufacturer, I'd rather have a championship winning car with an average driver than an average car driven by Alonso.
wunderkind wrote:I think Mercedes is willing to supply McLaren as a strong McLaren is good for the sport. But it will be done on a strict non-works basis. Also bear in mind that Mercedes-AMG F1 would probably not be where it is today had McLaren exercised its veto right and blocked Mercedes from supplying engines to Brawn GP in 2009.
I doubt McLaren can do anything before June/July at the earliest as they have to give Honda every courtesy and opportunity to make things work. The software side of things will be a nightmare for the McLaren and Mercedes engineers to work through with no testing allowed.
In the meantime, what is McLaren going to do with their Honda-branded team-wear? I'd hate to be John Allert (the McLaren brand director) now........
Last but not least, do we believe the Honda engine is McLaren's only problem?
The advantage is that the Honda layout is somewhat similar to the Mercedes layout. And since they used Merc engine in 2014, they know how to install it. Otherwise the whole rear has to be new. A new gearbox has to be assembled with correct ratio, and so on ... But will it pay off ? Maybe. Last time a mid season engine swap was the Footwork FA12 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Footwork_FA12
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"
So a brand new Mercedes S-Class and a VW Golf MK1 are the same too?
These PU's are a whole different story in Terms of Integration than the Ancient V8 Dinosaurs back in 2009. Surely it can be done, but it would be a Hell of a Job.
People need to stop referring to these things as ENGINES. They are not. They are power-units and there is a lot attached to it that just isn't plug and play and certainly not anything like it was back in 2009.
And back to the topic:
All this is, IMO, is putting some pressure on Honda. In all honestly though, the amount of money that Honda is pouring into McLaren isn't little. Lets assume the following that the partnership with Honda is worth in 100+ Million in sponsorship, Alonso's salary and the free engines are thrown in as well. If they part with Honda, instead of getting that 100 million in sponsorship that they can use to spend on the car, aero, paying their highly decorated technical staff and drivers, they will be SPENDING part of that money on not-free engines (25 million?) and driver salaries.
The big question is:
Does McLaren want to retain being a top team at least budget wise and continue to dream that the results will come eventually, or are they willing to risk to become a midfield team with a substantially lower budget but have perhaps a better, known quantity customer-engine-deal with either Renault or Mercedes? One thing is certain: If they go to a better engine, they won't be able to hide behind the "weak PU" argument any longer and they'll [the chassis/aero team] will be in the spot light and shortcomings will be heavily scrutinized.
For all the faults the Honda supposedly has, IMO McLaren are overstating/overselling their aero/chassis ability. They are doing this, because in the mindset of many fans and supporters and sponsors, they are still a historic team capable of producing winning cars. And most importantly, Honda needs to believe this too, as they are investing into them. My bet is, if Honda thought that McLaren was lacking, they'd be re-thinking their level of investment into McLaren. After all, they are financing a lot through sponsorship and retaining that star-driver in Alonso. They want to be absolutely certain that they win and not find out that on the chance that they get their engine to work and it is the best on the field, to not also win races. It's a tricky situation. If I were Honda, I'd be using McLaren as a test-bench. Then follow up with your own factory team eventually, just as Renault have done. Much better than achieving something, but falling short because the "other half" isn't performing. It's a bit of a bad situation for both McLaren and Honda really, with neither to blame than each other.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II #Team44 supporter
Phil wrote:...
One thing is certain: If they go to a better engine, they won't be able to hide behind the "weak PU" argument any longer and they'll [the chassis/aero team] will be in the spot light and shortcomings will be heavily scrutinized...
Well, in 2014 they had a Mercedes PU, and they were still talking that Mercedes give them the data of the engine late, so that they couldn't package it as efficiently. And don't forget the diffirent lubricants, they were alegedly missing upwards of 60hp becouse of diffirent oils in the engine witch I think is rediciolus. So if they get the best engine, it could still be engines fault that they are not winning...
That may be true. But again... McLaren wanted this partnership with Honda.
Why did they want it? Maybe because they realized that teams that get to plan the entire process from engine to chassis and its packaging will hold an advantage over teams that are mere customers and get what they get without any special privileges attached, no customization of any degree whatsoever.
Want a smaller engine? Nope. Either build one yourself or find yourself a [engine] manufacturer that will cater to your specific interest.
This is not just about having the most powerful engine. It's about ticking all the boxes. You want power, you want efficiency and at the same time, you also want to tick the right boxes in regards to size and cooling because that has a direct effect on how you package it and that in itself has an effect on how efficient your aero will be on the car (drag vs. downforce). This is what differentiates a Mercedes, a Ferrari, a Renault, yes even a McLaren-Honda, from the rest of the grid. They have the unique ability to plan everything down from the packaging requirements of the engine down to how harmonic that works with the design of the car itself.
Again: McLaren wanted this, over their previous "customer" status. They wanted this partnership with Honda for no other reason than to be able to be part of that design process. Perhaps also on some level, they thought that Honda could build a better engine than the Mercedes, though I am doubtful if this was realistic knowing how much Mercedes had invested the years leading up to 2014. For the most part, McLaren wanted a technical partnership, be as close as one could name them a "works-team" because they wanted the smallest, most efficient engine so that they could produce a car with better aero.
I find it a bit sad that now 3 years into this technical partnership, McLaren (well key figures at McLaren anyway) are pointing fingers at Honda for "underperforming" and acting no better than a disgruntled customer not getting what they were promised. They are not a mere customer. As a partner, an equal part of this technical partnership, they would have just as much insight on what, why and how this Honda engine was designed. If they didn't, then I seriously question the reasons for why they wanted to that kind of partnership with Honda in the first place.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II #Team44 supporter
Phil wrote:That may be true. But again... McLaren wanted this partnership with Honda.
Why did they want it? Maybe because they realized that teams that get to plan the entire process from engine to chassis and its packaging will hold an advantage over teams that are mere customers and get what they get without any special privileges attached, no customization of any degree whatsoever.
Want a smaller engine? Nope. Either build one yourself or find yourself a [engine] manufacturer that will cater to your specific interest.
This is not just about having the most powerful engine. It's about ticking all the boxes. You want power, you want efficiency and at the same time, you also want to tick the right boxes in regards to size and cooling because that has a direct effect on how you package it and that in itself has an effect on how efficient your aero will be on the car (drag vs. downforce). This is what differentiates a Mercedes, a Ferrari, a Renault, yes even a McLaren-Honda, from the rest of the grid. They have the unique ability to plan everything down from the packaging requirements of the engine down to how harmonic that works with the design of the car itself.
Again: McLaren wanted this, over their previous "customer" status. They wanted this partnership with Honda for no other reason than to be able to be part of that design process. Perhaps also on some level, they thought that Honda could build a better engine than the Mercedes, though I am doubtful if this was realistic knowing how much Mercedes had invested the years leading up to 2014. For the most part, McLaren wanted a technical partnership, be as close as one could name them a "works-team" because they wanted the smallest, most efficient engine so that they could produce a car with better aero.
I find it a bit sad that now 3 years into this technical partnership, McLaren (well key figures at McLaren anyway) are pointing fingers at Honda for "underperforming" and acting no better than a disgruntled customer not getting what they were promised. They are not a mere customer. As a partner, an equal part of this technical partnership, they would have just as much insight on what, why and how this Honda engine was designed. If they didn't, then I seriously question the reasons for why they wanted to that kind of partnership with Honda in the first place.
Well, in 2014 they had a Mercedes PU, and they were still talking that Mercedes give them the data of the engine late, so that they couldn't package it as efficiently. And don't forget the diffirent lubricants, they were alegedly missing upwards of 60hp becouse of diffirent oils in the engine witch I think is rediciolus. So if they get the best engine, it could still be engines fault that they are not winning...[/quote]
Umm, 30hp, 40hp,and now 60hp? Just wow, they running in kerosene instead of race fuel
In that whole discussion of whether to stick with Honda or leave them for any other PU manufacturer I wonder why a third option isn't even discussed: Why wouldn't McLaren build its own power units? As far as I understand they do that for their regular sports cars, e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren_M838T_engine for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren_650S. So with their whole sports car division behind the F1 team they should know how to do it. I'm not saying it's easy nor that it will go fast, but it should be an option at least.
I understand that current power units go far beyond a sole engine which is only the ICE unit, but still they should have linkages to relevant suppliers to develop the remaining parts (MGU-K, MGU-H, turbocharger, battery) if they can't do by themselves. Furthermore, to my knowledge, McLaren is the monopole supplier of the Control Electronics for all F1 power units as additional advantage.
What am I missing here that apparently nobody else even considers the option of building own power units?
What are you missing? Like 99% of what it takes to develop a power unit. Same reason Red Bull doesn't. It IS rocket science and being 2ND in the constructors championship using a customer engine is still number 1 loser. MB is not going to provide McLaren a winning engine. McLaren also don't seem to have the greatest engineers and mechanics either. You've got a cigarette puffing Peter Prod and tattooed staff you'd have thought they worked for Miami ink. Honda should be commended for even being in F1 in the first place, given the obvious advantage and headstart others had. Not to mention taking on the Eurocentric favoritism toward MB, Ferrari and Renault.
Truth is, people are sick of the Silver arrows Era, we want a new Golden Era powered again by Honda, the underdog. To even say Honda doesn't have the resources and that McLaren does makes me facepalm. For the sake of F1, Honda should be allowed to catch up, though the FIA probably secretly enjoys watching them suffer.
ispano6 wrote:McLaren also don't seem to have the greatest engineers and mechanics either. You've got a cigarette puffing Peter Prod and tattooed staff you'd have thought they worked for Miami ink. .
First sentence could be correct, but we have no information to support that. Implying that smoking a cigarette or having ink is a sign of someone beeing bad at their job or something like that... That's just plain stupidity from your part...
