Influence of Pirelli tyre pressure on 2017 contenders

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diego.liv
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power +

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Big Mangalhit wrote:
02 Jun 2017, 09:46
hollowBallistix wrote:
01 Jun 2017, 16:37
How did they validate that the down force levels were false ? Did they just compare it to what other teams were reporting & find it odd that one team was apparently reporting higher levels ?

What if Merc are actually achieving those levels of down force & now a blanket reduction in the tyre pressure will harm them ? Why mandate lower pressures anyway ? They made a massive fuss regarding low pressures for safety grounds last year, so if there's no issue now running them at the high or at the low end, why not just let the teams adjust pressures to extract the best performance from their package providing there's no "safety" concern.

Pirelli are just incompetent.
Jeez I really think you can't grasp the concept of minimum pressure. Mercedes can still choose to run the higher pressure if they want to. If anything they want to pressure pirelli into mandating higher minimum pressure so they can hurt Ferrari which maybe works better with lower pressure. But they are not obliged themselves to run this.

So what you are complaining is that pirelli this year lets teams choose their tyre pressure according to what suits them unlike last year where they were mandating very high pressures with fear of tyre blows and bad reputation. ironically you also seem to want what you are complaining about #-o
I think you pretty much nailed it. This is just the Spanish gp case https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/la-pi ... =Pressioni

diego.liv
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Re: Influence of Pirelli tyre pressure on 2017 contenders

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https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/merce ... q=Mercedes

-Merc and Renault are the two rumoured to have given, based on their Monaco simulations at Brackley/Enstone, higher downforce levels to Pirelli. So asking them higher PSIs
-the softer the suspension config, a more rigid tyre shoulder was preferred by Merc, fearing the quick changes in load from side to side
-at the same time higher minimum levels would hurt others like Ferrari who have mastered the tyre balance in their own way
-the famous Ferrari winter letter: apparently Paddy Lowe made no secret about the Merc suspension study, a complex 3D-like map that was spot on in keeping a constant ride height. This worked brilliantly with a non-rake set up for the very nature of the project. Now Merc can't fully utilize all the floor like they wanted to generate downforce

Gothrek
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power +

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Big Mangalhit wrote:
02 Jun 2017, 09:46

Jeez I really think you can't grasp the concept of minimum pressure. Mercedes can still choose to run the higher pressure if they want to. If anything they want to pressure pirelli into mandating higher minimum pressure so they can hurt Ferrari which maybe works better with lower pressure. But they are not obliged themselves to run this.

So what you are complaining is that pirelli this year lets teams choose their tyre pressure according to what suits them unlike last year where they were mandating very high pressures with fear of tyre blows and bad reputation. ironically you also seem to want what you are complaining about #-o
At least somebody gets it =D>

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power +

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timbo wrote:
02 Jun 2017, 08:04
mantikos wrote:
01 Jun 2017, 20:43
You know that could just be the result of Ferrari's better grip due to turning the tires on, whereas Merc can't show it's real pace since the tires are never turned on.
I would expect overheating tires if the pressures are too low. Not the other way around. So far it doesn't seem like Merc is suffering from too much degradation/blistering.
I think the bulk tyre temperature is gained quicker at lower pressures due to more carcas flexing. Whereas at high tyre pressures the bulk temperature is lower becuase of less flexing but the contact patch temperatures are actaully hotter due to a smaller contact patch and higher gradient of flexing at the patch. Sort of the problem Mercedes are getting with their ultra soft hence lower tyre pressures should actaully help Mercedes not the other way around!
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flmkane
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power +

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mantikos wrote:
01 Jun 2017, 20:43
Vanja #66 wrote:
01 Jun 2017, 18:48
Ferrari are, based on corner speeds and performance in mid- and high-speed corners so far, most likely generating more downforce than Mercedes this year. How would lowering the tyre pressures then hurt Mercedes more than it would Ferrari? In other words - how could this be going to Ferrari's advantage?
You know that could just be the result of Ferrari's better grip due to turning the tires on, whereas Merc can't show it's real pace since the tires are never turned on.
In my opinion, if Ferrari are faster at high and medium speed corners, that basically indicates more downforce. That's simply because downforce should be roughly proportional to the square of the speed of the car.

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Phil
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Re: Influence of Pirelli tyre pressure on 2017 contenders

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I think one of the biggest factors is the ride height difference at the rear between the Mercedes and the Ferrari. Mercedes have opted for a design of the car where they can generate a lot of downforce with little rake but a long wheelbase. One of the possible results of this, could be that with a low rake design, it allows for less suspension travel, meaning stiffer rear than the Ferrari that can be softer. This could be crucial in how both cars can get heat into their tires.

According to AMuS, in the past, Mercedes understood the fine requirements of the pre-2017 tires better and also had FRIC and the trick suspension that helped overcome it on their previous design.

This would suggest the "problem" Mercedes has s more complex than just a matter of which car has more downforce.
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Big Mangalhit
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Re: Influence of Pirelli tyre pressure on 2017 contenders

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I don't understand why people still mention the FRIC has it was used last year. FRIC was banned in mid-2014. Merc or any other team is no longer using RIC for a while. What people call the trick suspension is a completely different method of doing the same thing but without any front-rear connection

ENGINE TUNER
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power +

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Big Mangalhit wrote:
02 Jun 2017, 09:46
hollowBallistix wrote:
01 Jun 2017, 16:37
How did they validate that the down force levels were false ? Did they just compare it to what other teams were reporting & find it odd that one team was apparently reporting higher levels ?

What if Merc are actually achieving those levels of down force & now a blanket reduction in the tyre pressure will harm them ? Why mandate lower pressures anyway ? They made a massive fuss regarding low pressures for safety grounds last year, so if there's no issue now running them at the high or at the low end, why not just let the teams adjust pressures to extract the best performance from their package providing there's no "safety" concern.

Pirelli are just incompetent.
Jeez I really think you can't grasp the concept of minimum pressure. Mercedes can still choose to run the higher pressure if they want to. If anything they want to pressure pirelli into mandating higher minimum pressure so they can hurt Ferrari which maybe works better with lower pressure. But they are not obliged themselves to run this.

So what you are complaining is that pirelli this year lets teams choose their tyre pressure according to what suits them unlike last year where they were mandating very high pressures with fear of tyre blows and bad reputation. ironically you also seem to want what you are complaining about #-o

It is you that may not grasping what could be going on. If Pirelli have mandated a minimum pressure from pre season testing going forward and then all of a sudden begin to progressively lower that minimum pressure they could be unfairly aiding 1(or more) teams over others. Merc could have designed/tuned their suspension and aero platform to the pirelli tires as they were run from pre-season testing and then all of a sudden pirelli begin to precipitously drop the minimum tire pressures on a race by race, or day by day basis giving an advantage to teams that did not tune their cars as well or as much.

Lower pressures(over a weekend) probably help everyone go faster, but they most certainly help some more than others, and that is wrong in a single tire series.

This is no different than when pirelli changed the construction of their tires mid 2013 that ended up favoring the RBR car.

LostInTranslation
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Re: Influence of Pirelli tyre pressure on 2017 contenders

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I do think this interview engaging on a F1 italian site with Enrique Scalabroni could be very instructive. Here is the link: http://www.newsf1.it/newsf1-speciale-in ... roni13193/
I tried with google translator with some minimum corrections and adjustments by myself. Hope it's understandable. Tbh, I think it is one of the most intelligent and instructive things I've been reading for a long time on this Formula One season. Enjoy.

Scalabroni interview

The name of engineer Enrique Scalabroni does not need any presentation for a Motorsport enthusiast: the long (and full of success) experience among Formula One (Williams "world champions" FW11 and FW11B, Ferrari 641 and 641/2 in the 90s with Prost, Lotus, Asiatech) and Endurance (with its "iridated" Peugeot 905 of the "invincible team" led by Jean Todt). Even throughout the aerodynamic development of Ford GT in the FIA GT championship... that make him one of the top expert engineers.
And we at www.newsf1.it asked him some questions about the "hot topic" of the current Formula 1: the correct exploitation of the new "wide" Pirelli tires.
It is for me a special emotion to be able to interview the person who conceived and realized the car to whom are tied my first memories of "young passionate of Formula 1": the Ferrari 641/2 (with which the prancing horse achieved its one hundredth victory in F1), the only racing car to be displayied at MoMA in New York.
Engineer Scalabroni, however, puts me amiably at ease, and in this beautiful chat via Skype he answers various questions about the main issues of Formula 1 (and not only).

NewsF1- Eng. Scalabroni, thanking him for his utmost availability and kindness, I immediately come to this conclusion: Mercedes recently, by the mouth of his team principal Toto Wolff, complained to Pirelli not to receive "suitable" tires to his W08 ( implying, not even too much covertly, that the new "XL" tires are better suited to Ferrari. That accusation were readily forwarded to the sender by Pirelli CEO Tronchetti Provera).
But this is no longer due to an erroneous or defective job done in the pre-seasons tests by the Stuttgart / Brackley / Brixworth team?


Eng. Scalabroni- This year, with the rules changes introduced, it has led to cars that not only with the increased aerodynamic load but also with the newest tire that significantly increase the mechanical grip have greatly improved their speed in turns compared to the previous three years (+48 Km / h in some turns), it was necessary to start "almost" from a white sheet.

I say "almost" because Ferrari and Red Bull were able to take advantage of the background of two of their most prominent technicians, Rory Byrne and Adrian Newey, about the employment and maximum utilization of larger tires (background due to Scalabroni too, given his years of militancy in F.1 in the Goodyear period -n.d.r. ).

And these two teams designed cars with concepts that fully married these needs. First, adopting the concept created by Adrian Newey of "High Rake"

And with suspensive systems of quite "soft" calibration (the difference among Ferrari and Red Bull is currently chronically shrinking power from the Renault Power Unit, which does not allow the RBR car to develop with adequate aerodynamic load).

Softer suspensions and high rake trim, as well as allowing a [CX x A] "variable" product in relation to the speed, with the lowering of the rear in speed, decreases the drag (thanks to the reduction of the Cx [Coeff. Form] , due to the incidence of change, of a few degrees below the rear wing, resulting in the reduction of the master section [A] of the car), but then returning to standard values at lower speeds.
Additionally, suspensions with softer torsion bars make it possible to look for more mechanical grip by making the tire work in the right range of structural rigidity of the entire elastic assembly as well as in the right "thermal exploitation windows" that for these Pirelli tires can range from the 90 ° minima of the low-working range to hold to the 140th highest of the toughest high-working ranges (values, in absolute terms, quite high).

Instead, Mercedes followed a completely different philosophy, that's consequence of the one used in the three years previously dominated: a car with little rake, quite stiff from a suspensive point of view. Philosophy that does not seem to be the correct one for these tires.

In addition, the deep organizational change within the team goes hand in hand: Rosberg gone (who, for my direct experience, I can define a great tester capable of providing the correct technical feedback to the engineers), Paddy Lowe gone (equilibrium maker so far found) and inside James Allison. It is not a coincidence that Mercedes, with his arrival, has started to have problems similar to those that, until the end of last year, Ferrari had to get the tires in temperature.

Here, Ferrari was very good at understanding what was needed when drawing the 2017 car, as well as the "driving sensation" that was needed to provide the drivers, whose importance this year has increased considerably compared to the past.

And the Scuderia has been very busy in the tests, much more than the direct rivals (especially with Vettel, which also in the pace of race is really showing a state of grace), and the excellent demonstration is the performance of Raikkonen in Montecarlo qualifying, a clear example of a Ferrari that came to technical achievements (even in terms of development) so far.

Instead, Mercedes, with Hamilton and the "new driver" Bottas (recently in the team but still valid and fast), could take some time during the season before fully understanding how to use tires at better, due to the lack of participation, commitment and meticulousness, not to compare with to that one of Ferrari in Pirelli Testing during the 2017 tire development phase.

NewsF1- The "ban", also thanks to the letter from Ferrari Chief Engineer Simone Resta, regarding passive suspension systems tending to "simulate" hydraulically an active behavior, may have affected the current Mercedes performance defaillance?

Eng. Scalabroni - It could be, but not in such a high percentage as, on the contrary, deriving from the philosophical choices previously examined.

We can say that choosing the High Rake Car design allows us to find a better balance even with a shorter wheelbase (as in the case of Ferrari), while the longest wheelbase chosen by Mercedes, probably for a new distribution of the internal organs (engine , gearboxes) and aerodynamics (which, to reduce the Cx, must work at smaller ground distances, therefore with stiffer suspension suspension and less excursion) creates some weight problems and an increase in Polar Inertia Moment of the car in the act of changing the curve direction, resulting in a reduction in Angular Acceleration.

Consequently, we have a behavior that can create an understeering initial response (with the car that tends to "not turn") in slow and medium speed curves. In addition, the low rake trim requires the use of more rigid torsion bars to ensure that the rear axle does not go too close to the ground in order to not lose the efficiency of the rear diffuser. This excess of stiffness also generates lack of traction and overheating of the rear tires (due to wheelspin).

Consequently, an increase in the stiffness of the front suspension can give us a more responsive, reactive car, but even a car, due to modifyied set-ups to balance the rear end, that it's far more difficult to properly turn on the front tires, even during the braking phase. In addition to the fact, as noted in Monte Carlo, that it is not possible to pass over the curbs without excessive "slip".

NewsF1- The next GP, from a technical point of view, on the Canadian track in Montreal, what features will it require? How will be set the strength reports on the track between Mercedes and Ferrari?

Eng. Scalabroni- Certainly the long straight lines will make the Mercedes Power Units best able to express, especially in their most powerful mapping, but you also need to consider the asphalt quite disjointed and corrugated at certain points, in addition to the turns where you are looking for great skills of traction as well as some important braking phases.

And here might be important the least rigid setting due to Ferrari's High Rake.

In addition, a lower wear of the SF70-H tires (especially at the rear; Mercedes, on the other hand, seems to be more "problematic" in being able to fully discharge the power of the MGU-K generator, which, like every electric motor has a hight, flashy peak of torque) could be the key to a more correct pit strategy, which, as we saw in Monaco, could see "favored" the overercut. .

zac510
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Re: Influence of Pirelli tyre pressure on 2017 contenders

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You can see why Pirelli are absolutely paranoid about being slightly progressive about building better tyres - 1psi of rule change and they're accused of favouritism.

marmer
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Re: Influence of Pirelli tyre pressure on 2017 contenders

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they don't favor any team they give all teams the same tyres and equal opp to test them. its up to the teams to make the car work the tyres

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SR71
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Re: Influence of Pirelli tyre pressure on 2017 contenders

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Pirelli is doing the opposite of favoritism.

They are opening the window for more teams to find performance.

Nobody is forcing a single team to run lower pressures.

If mercs performance was locked in high PSI they would be favoring Merc by keeping pressures artificially high.

ENGINE TUNER
ENGINE TUNER
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Re: Influence of Pirelli tyre pressure on 2017 contenders

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SR71 wrote:
07 Jun 2017, 19:20
Pirelli is doing the opposite of favoritism.

They are opening the window for more teams to find performance.

Nobody is forcing a single team to run lower pressures.

If mercs performance was locked in high PSI they would be favoring Merc by keeping pressures artificially high.
That is absurd, they wouldn't be "keeping pressures artificially high", they would be keeping the pressures consistent through the weekend. Unless there is a safety reason to lower the pressures(THERE IS NOT), there is no logic behind lowering the pressures.

The pressures have been run since pre-season testing and to suddenly change them and in the middle of the weekend is biased.

Your logic is absolutely flawed.

BanMeToo
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Re: Influence of Pirelli tyre pressure on 2017 contenders

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He's saying that Merc don't have to run the lower pressure if that hurts their car.

ENGINE TUNER
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Re: Influence of Pirelli tyre pressure on 2017 contenders

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marmer wrote:
07 Jun 2017, 19:01
they don't favor any team they give all teams the same tyres and equal opp to test them. its up to the teams to make the car work the tyres

The teams tested the tires in pre season(and the first tire test) and made adjustments to make their cars "work the tires" only to have pirelli change the tire pressures in the middle of the weekend, that is absolutely favoritism regardless of if pirelli knows who they are favoring. Constantly changing the tire parameters is not fair to any of the teams, but could always negatively affect some teams more than others.